question

Hi Robert, double that !

I am also in Portugal, with a not-so-good grid connection, but i have a massive victron setup (6 Multiplus-II 5000, approx 50kw batteries Pylontech, Venus and some more stuff).

After long fights with ESS Mode 3 (and finding a bug in the inverters), i am now on ESS Mode 1/2.
Things work PERFECTLY if i disconnect mains and run off my batteries.
I have a high power water pump (7kw, 3 phase) which works absolutely fine with the victron setup in off-grid mode.
BUT dare me, if i connect the setup to the grid i get instabilities, Victron going off-grid for no apparent reason, and also shutting down the SMA solar inverters with frequency shifts often (when going off). The 'going off grid' is sometimes triggered by a load change, but often enough, spontaneously, without obvious reason.
I am a control freak and read out and log everything possible via modbus and visualise on grafana .. the fascinating thing is that victron reports different frequencies for input and output when connected to the grid (transfer relay closed .. how can that be), and sometimes even different frequencies on one phase (to my understanding that MUST be bogus).
Version 481 also here ..
Worst part .. the instabilities result in power cut of the loads of few hundred msecs, which reset all computers and can really destroy equipment ..

My temporary remedy is to charge my batteries in the night, carefully (small charge current to not get fired off grid) and then manually go island in the morning to have a stable system, but that cannot be the solution.
If it were only the Ziehl .. but you will need two power relays too (in my case min 63Ams, 3 Phase), that makes the bill much higher. I hope victron gets the bug fixed in their firmware.

Johannes

Hello people, Luis here, I'm joining this thread because I'm yet another customer with exactly the same problems.

Also in Portugal - what's up with that?

Our unit is a Quattro 48/15000.

I would also like to know what Victron has to say.

- Honestly, our main concern was to get the system working as intended, and without the need to be constantly checking in.

- And yes, we also believe that it's important to mention the concern for the overall health of the electrical appliances, while the unit was behaving like that.

Let me tell you, for us it took about 9 months total, from initially repairing and then replacing the Quattro because it was overloading itself and eventually died completely.
Until the final verdict of disabling LOM.

At one point we tested a single Multiplus-II 5000, it worked fine for days, no issues.

Overall a very unpleasant experience, and an additional cost that wasn't supposed to come up.

[EDIT] This is something I failed to mention initially: with LOM detection disabled, the transfer takes too long, and some electrical appliances reset. We tried raising the minimum voltage, and it helps to an extent, but the problem persists.

Dear mister Vader @mvader (Victron Energy),

I don't know what your ideas are when you read these post but for me being your customer I find this shocking.

Clearly this is a problem that exist for a long time and sitting back doing nothing may cause human lives. Did you think about this? I did, before I switched off the LOM to test. I went to the transformer to see if there was anybody around. The idea of electrocuting somebody didn't appeal to me.

Reading that more people have similar problems means more people are switching of LOM (to test). What happens when they forget to switch it back on? Who will be responsible? Don't forget, they are doing something that is mentioned in a manual written by you.

It's just a matter of time until something bad happens!

I read also about the material implications (and the cost to fix this) ,this is already something that crosses a line (you may hold Victron accountable for this). But knowing about this problem for a long time doing nothing about this and therefore willingly play with humans lives is something that I don't understand. I think this is a more important issue than my question about the next step what to do with my faulty products.

Respond and fix this! Don't wait until it's to late...

Robert

P.s. I hope more customers, installers and dealers will respond to this post.

Hi everyone,

Yes, this is quite frustrating for everyone. And this puts us (dealers) in a really bad position. How can we explain the installers / end-users "well, the grid detection method from Victron its flawed, you have to ask your grid operator to install a new transformer close to your place, or install a 500€ device (with all the breakers and relays, that's what the Ziehl ends up costing).

Specially, when there are already grid-inverters working fine, with no LOM issues at all, this gets even more difficult to swallow.

Specially with @footswitch Luís, it was quite a pain, he was driving very often to the end-user house at 10PM in the night, to check what was happening. It took some time for Victron, 1 replacement inverter, (we needed to go through Level1 support, all the basic checks, that took a long time, and we had to pressure them for answers) to admit / suggest this was a LOM fault. Luckly Luis's customer had a lot of patience...

In the end, we were so fed up with the lack of response from Victron, me and Luis agreed to pay the cost of the relay between us, and that's was the solution. Probably that's what we are going to do with Johannes and Robert too (our customers).

This put's us, dealers, (for installers of course our margin is very low) in a really bad position. Basically our margin on Luis Victron was not enough to cover the cost of the 50%. AND, Luis went into a loss, with all the travelling to the customer, testing, etc..

@mvader (Victron Energy) I don't think this is acceptable from Victron. Multipluses II are certified AR-N 4105, they are supposed to work fine, not to be faulty and require an external protection.

If they are not capable to comply with this grid code (or any grid code at all) under certain grid conditions, that certificate should be revoked. Our under those conditions, you should offer the external relay. And this problems should be clearly written on the spec sheet, something like:

*7) Under some circunstances, our grid detection method will not work, and it will require a Ziehl relay.

I mean. Who pays for all the pain and money installers go through? Who pays when appliances get damaged because of the "blackouts"? What happens (very low probability I know), if someone is working on the transformer while the no-LOM test is being performed?

I expect an answer from the team, going silent and ignore problems, will not solve this.

Best regards

Pedro

Hi Victron team,

I am sure you are aware of my post and the problems I have with the LOM. Today I ran the installation for a few hours with LOM disabled to see if this would work for a longer time. In addition, I checked regularly if somebody wanted to do some work on the transformer (EDP can’t get to it easily). I noticed that the installation is still aware of the grid connection when I switch off LOM. When I switch the main circuit breaker of, it reacts instantly by disconnecting and going into Inverter mode. While working I played around with the ESS settings and it works like a charm. In the end, I regretted that I needed to switch the LOM back on.

3 years ago, I read about the Micro grid and liked the concept of it. I bought the Fronius that year because I knew I could integrate this later with the Victron. It took me almost a year to sort out what I wanted from Victron, thinking this would work! Besides, being Dutch I love to support Dutch companies. Now I am wondering: did I make the right choice? Will I get a response from Victron or do you leave me: hanging out to dry?

The dealer confirmed the LOM failure; he cannot do much more for me. Surely, he does not like this situation because the implications are huge. In future, selling a Victron product in Portugal will be a challenge because power lines are always a risk (or sell it it always with a Ziehl). Besides, it’s a product from Victron and therefore the responsibilities lie with the producer.

For sure, the product is not up to expectations and therefore I as a customer want to know: do you want to try to solve the LOM problem? Do I send both MP-II’s back for repair or modification? Or do you want to go for a full refund including cost (like shipping cost etc.)? Al so an option could be to help me with the Ziehl and sort things out that way?

I serenely hope Victron will look into this problem in more detail and work towards a solution for all customers that have and will experience LOM issues. I doubt that I, or the others that responded to my post, will hear from Victron on this community.

Robert

Hi Robert. First my apologies for taking a while to answer here; Guy as well as others highlighted this thread to me in the past week.

Before looking for alternatives and a possible refund, @robertg66 lets see if we can find a solution by having a closer look at your system. I’ll make sure you’re contacted by email latest on Monday. The actual diagnosis might take a short while longer, the one engineer that is best to look at this is out of office the coming week. All the best, Matthijs

Hi, I am not familiar at all with Portugese regulations, but if it is possible to apply a German grid regulation, it might be possible to apply an Australien one too. Why not applying the one with the "outside joined" N wire. In this case the ground relay tests can be avoided. Perhaps this might help as a back up for the issue. But don't forget to do the wiring, if you want to test.

Ok problem solved.

For reference:
After we emailed Victron, stating that we would contact the the EU regulators, to revoke the VDE 4105 certifcate, Victron finally replied via email, they will offer a Ziehl relay.
So, for customers, installers, dealers and distributors, dealing with this issue in the future, this is the solution (the fair solution IMO).

Thanks.

Hi all, resurrecting this old thread to check on it's status, is this still an issue or has it been addressed already? I'm looking into setting up a single Multiplus II 5k at my place for ESS and ran across this while in due diligence.