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semlohnhoj avatar image
semlohnhoj asked

SmartSolar 100/20 drops to <10W intermittently for no obvious reasons

I've got 5 x SmartSolar 100/20's (Firmware v1.61) with 4x170W panels conected to each. These are charging a 48V Lifepo4 battery bank (2 lots of 4x12.8V). There is also a SmartShunt (Firmware v4.12) in series.This is connected to a Smart RS Solar inverter (Firmware v1.11). The whole system is managed by a CerboGX (3.00~15) to which is connected to all the units via ve.bus and ve.can. All five of the MPPTS and the SmartShunt are also in a Bluetooth ve Smart Network.

Each group of 4 panels has different shading issue however the problem I'm having doesn't correspond to any particular shading or times of day.

The issue I have is that randomly, one or more of the SmartSolar MPPTs will intermittently drop out. Input PV voltage is fine (in fact, goes up a little), input PV current drops to near zero and output current falls to near zero. It will stay there for a random period of time and then corrects itself.

While this is happening, the other MPPT's will continue to work correctly (although sometimes, more than one MPPT will start to do this at the same point but correct itself at different points!).

None of these issues corresponds with temperatures, battery output loads. battery state of charge or anything else I can see. The MPPTs remain in Bulk mode at all times. It does seem to quite often happen when the battery voltage is around 54V (but not always).

At one point, when this was happening, I tripped the breaker between the MPPT and the solar panels and then turned it back on and the MPPT started working again.

I'm open to suggestions really because I'm stumped. My initial thoughts were it could be one of the following:

1) The fact they are in a ve.smart network as well as being managed by the CerboGX
2) The MPPT firmware has a bug

Some screenshots showing a few of the dropouts I have plenty other data if it helps :)

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MPPT SmartSolarfault
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1674415799354.png (69.9 KiB)
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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

The whole system is managed by a CerboGX (3.00~15) to which is connected to all the units via ve.bus and ve.can. All five of the MPPTS and the SmartShunt are also in a Bluetooth ve Smart Network.

In a system managed by a GX device, VE.Smart Networking should not be used.

Is DVCC enabled in Cerbo GX?

Which device is set as the Battery Monitor?

Are you sure that increasing the loads has no effect?

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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj seb71 commented ·

Hi, thanks for the reply.

I'll give disabling the ve smart networking a go.

DVCC is disabled.

The Shunt is set as the battery monitor.

The AC output load doesn't seem to correlate with the issue.


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seb71 avatar image seb71 semlohnhoj commented ·

Enable DVCC.


The AC output load doesn't seem to correlate with the issue.

What I meant is to try and see if increasing the load does bring the idling MPPTs back into production.


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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj seb71 commented ·
Ok. Up until the point they stop, the batteries are absorbing the current the MPPTs are supplying so there's still demand but I assume you mean extra load from the inverter.
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seb71 avatar image seb71 semlohnhoj commented ·
Yes. When you see that drop in power from an MPPT, increase the load in the inverter (with a big load) and observe the results.


The battery is limited in how much power/current it can absorb. This is why the test with a load on the inverter is necessary.

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10 Answers
semlohnhoj avatar image
semlohnhoj answered ·

This issue still happens periodically. Interestingly, it triggered when my electric heater switched on today (in orange in the image below) at 12:18. The heater has however clicked on and off dozens of times during the day before and after with no effect. It dropped out 2 of my SmartSolar MPPTs one of which recovered after a few minutes and the one in the screenshot (MPPT5) took 30 minutes.

Again, no obvious pattern to the fault and no obvious way of getting logs from the SmartSolar to see why it decided to do it?

Can someone from Victron add anything to this question?

MPPT5 does this quite often, MPPT3 and one of the others (I forget which one) do it less often, and the other 2 almost never do it. Is this faulty units or a software bug maybe?

If I can't get a solution to this I may have to engineer a more direct remedy, i.e. inserting a rely in line with the panels to disconnect them for 30 seconds to kick the things back into life which seems like over kill on my part for an issue that should at least be identifiable.

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semlohnhoj avatar image
semlohnhoj answered ·

Well, as an update to my issue with the MPPT dropouts, I haven't managed to nail down why it is doing it and I've disabled the Bluretooth network on them and tried applying a load to the inverter when one is doing this with no change to the MPPT.

What I have done is written a NodeRed flow to monitor all 5 of them and if one of them drops out when the other are working then it switched it off for 60 seconds and then turns it back on again. Problem solved, or more correclty, problem masked :)

I'd still like to have a proper fix for this but at least I have a stop gap. I can't understand why nobody else is having the issue which makes me wonder if I have an unusual setup having 5 MPPTs in a system or not having a BMS?

Would anyone recommend having DVCC turned on?

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JohnC avatar image JohnC ♦ commented ·
Hi @Semlohnhoj

Yes, use DVCC. It shouldn't hurt to have both SVS and SCS ticked, with the shunt as the source of both of those. Make sure that the mppts all have identical settings, and that the Tail (mppt one) is set low so it won't interfere.

Please don't have anything networked via the Smart bt. You don't need 2 networks, they could interact or throw quirks.

Bear in mind that the mppts will track every 10 minutes if they're pushing to reach a target V. This can take like 10 seconds or more as they swing the panel V several times. Often missed by the VRM sampling times, but can be shown by Victron Connect Trends. So don't get excited if you see odd spikes on the VRM graphs. Shouldn't happen though if V has reached target.

Flick your NodeRed thingy while testing.


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Fideri avatar image Fideri commented ·
@Semlohnhoj
I read somewhere on this forum that when using lithium batteries, a BMS is a must. Your post above seems to suggest otherwise? I'm not saying your troubles are linked to this.

Fideri

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semlohnhoj avatar image
semlohnhoj answered ·

UPDATE:

I still get this issue and I've got DVCC on, latest firmware everywhere. Been through goodness knows how many revisions on the MPPTs, Shunts and Cerbo. I've even got a Lynx shunt now and that didn't alter anything.

I do have something to add though. The 2 MPPTs that do this most often wher both running at 0 today after a while this morning and flat refused to reset even using my NodeRed script to the point I though the things had fried. I tried the following:

1) Resetting to factory defaults!
2) Turning the charging on/off via bluetooth
3) Flipping the DC isolators
4) Rewiring MPPT 2 & 3 so they had each others panels. The fault still stayed with the MPPT.

I then unplugged the VE.direct cable from MPPT1 while I was monitoring it via bluetooth (no change - 0W). But, when I plugged the VE.Direct cable back in about 20 seconds later it burst back into life!

So, to sanity check this, I did the same with MPPT2 and the same happened!

Now because I use quite a few VE.Direct devices (5xMPPTs, 4xShunts) I have 2x 3 way USB expanders in 2 of the USB ports on the Cerbo so my suspicions pointed there, unfortunately MPPT1 and MPPT2 ironically are the only VE.Direct devices that connect directly to the Cerbo's builtin VE.Direct ports.

I tried unplugging the USB adapters and plugging them back in again and after that MPPT3,4 and 5 all started dong similar things to 1 & 2 to the point where I had to reboot the Cerbo to get them working.

I'll change the USB adapters in the first instance for powered ones which won't be easy but I'm getting a little disillusioned with this to be honest. If there was some sort of debug logging it would help, whether it was me or Victron that could see.

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JohnC avatar image JohnC ♦ commented ·
@Semlohnhoj

Victron have always recommended quality, powered usb hub(s) when doing this. I'd expect that to help greatly.

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semlohnhoj avatar image
semlohnhoj answered ·

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) I have this issue at present with three out of five of the MPPTs and I was wondering if Victron could investigate the issue remotely? I'm happy to leave it like this for the remainder of the day othersie I can try the usual fiddling to try and get it working again.

If I unplug the USB cables from the MPPTs they sometimes start working, if I then disable the charger via bluetooth and then re-enble it they work fine. If I re-plug in the USB they will fail again randomly.

Any remote help would be really useful.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Semlohnhoj ,

I had a quick look at your case, and your VRM site, and the first thing that jumped out at me is your 'solar panel temp' is behaving extremely erratically jumping from 6 degrees to over 100 degrees, and then back in to the negative.

It clearly has a fault at some point, can you please physically disconnect it?


cleanshot-2023-10-23-at-154705.jpg


I saw your other post as well about USB hubs, did you end up getting those replaced with powered versions?

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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
I've just removed the sensor. This started happening after switching firmware although I'm not convinced it wasn't working on this version before and may have worked anyway if I rebooted the GX. It's removed now anyway.

The MPPT issue has gone for now anyway as I switched firmware again in desperation and this resolved the issue. It doesn't seem to matter what version of firmware it is, just the reboot I think. I'm running the latest beta now.

Don't know if this helps but when they are showing as failed (below say 5 Watts), they are in bulk mode, disable/enable charging makes no difference in general, removing the cerbo's connection to it by pulling out the white connector just under the MPPT Will not change anything but if I then disable and re-enable charging they come back to life. When I plug them back in they stay working up until around the point I've done this procedure with 3 out of 5 of the 100/20s. As soon as I do the same procedure with the fourth one, one of the previous ones would fail again?! The GX seems to be doing this deliberately for some reason. Batteries not fully charged by any means.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ semlohnhoj commented ·

Have you removed them from the VE.Smart network?

It's generally a good idea to disable VE.smart when connected to a GX device - https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/VE.Smart_Networking/en/limitations.html



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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Yes, I did at one point have them on a ve.smart network but I removed them on the request of another user about 9 months ago
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snoobler avatar image
snoobler answered ·

With 5 devices, you must be converting to USB.

Genuine Victron cables or DIY?


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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj commented ·
Yes, all genuine Victron. There are 2 non Victron USB hubs however the Victron smart shunts are also plugged into these and they have no issues in fact the MPPTs have no comms issues either, they just seem to be being told to stop charging in some way by the GX? In fact, 2 of the MPPTs plug in directly to the GX and not via the USB hubs anyway.
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christiangurk avatar image
christiangurk answered ·

Hi,

I have the same problem with my four SmartSolar 100/20 MPPT:

mppt.jpg

Suddently dropping to near zero Power and start working after 5-30 Minutes. The four MPPTs are connected with a 4-port USB-Serial adapter which is itself connected directly to a RaspberryPi 3 running VenusOS. For all version data:

firmware.jpg

I tried switch battery charging on/off with bluetooth over the app and this helped to get a "broken" MPPT start charging again. So I suppose some kind of firmware bug. I don't see any reason to stay this long in this low power mode.
Maybe someone von Victron can have a look into the firmware?


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firmware.jpg (42.2 KiB)
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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj commented ·

Well it's interesting that it's not just me that has this issue. The MPPTs that exhibit this issue for me are not necessarily connected via USB hubs either, in fact, the ones that are worst are directly connected to the USB ports on the GX!


I wrote some NodeRed code to manually disable/enable the MPPTs if they go below 20W during the day for more than a couple of minutes while the others MPPTs are still producing power. It's a botch but it does work.

I keep a log of how often it does it in a day as well:

screenshot-20231121-175608-edge.jpg

The status is 'O' for OFF because it's the evening.

You can see on the graph below (blue line) where the NodeRed code has reset it after 2 minutes instead of the usual mysterious 10 to 30 minutes delay:

screenshot-20231121-175815-vrm.jpg

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felix-schuchmann avatar image felix-schuchmann semlohnhoj commented ·

Could you paste the NodeRed script? Or what command do you send to shut it down?

I have the exact same issue since I've added my second MPPT (100/20).
I had two panels connected to a 150/35, running for some months without any problem. Then I've added more panels, rewired them to the old 150/35, added a new 100/20, moved the old panels from the 150/35 to the 100/20.

And now it drops whenever it's cloudy and the sun hides behind a cloud. My 150/35 drops from 100W to 300W (normal) and the 100/20 drops from 300W to 6W, stays there for some minutes and then moves back to 80W where it should be.

During that "minutes" it just stays at 6W, no matter what the sun/clouds are doing. Only disconnecting the PV fuse and reconnecting it immediately fixes it. For me it looks like the MPPT get's "irritated" when it's cloudy. It's not happening always, but sometimes.

Not related to battery SoC and the PC/V stays (or goes up a bit). It's just the DC/0/Current that drops to 0.1A. No error, no mode or ChargeCurrentLimit change in dbus-spy.

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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj felix-schuchmann commented ·

The guys in Victron support are looking at this for me at the moment. They installed some test firmware (vC1.63) that certainly seems to have resolved the problem for me over the last few weeks so it may be worth seeing how this pans out or asking if you can try the same test firmware?


Check the posts below from Guy and Daniël.


Otherwise I'm happy to post the NodeRed script. I'll package it up later on and put it on here for you as a last resort..


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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj semlohnhoj commented ·

Reset MPPTs.zip

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reset-mppts.zip (2.3 KiB)
felix-schuchmann avatar image felix-schuchmann semlohnhoj commented ·
Thank you. Test firmware sounds good, I'll keep an eye on it too.
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semlohnhoj avatar image
semlohnhoj answered ·

Hi, @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) Could someone in dev look at this?

I've had this problem for nearly a year now and it seems I'm not the only one.

For clarity, there seem to be 2 distinct issues which may or may not be related:


1) The SmartSolar 100/20 MPPTs will randomly, during normal operation just drop below 20W for no obvious reason and stay there for random lengths of time upto over an hour on occasions while other MPPTs are working fine. Disabling/Enabling via VictronConnect (or NodeRed) makes them work fine again. Some MPPTs seem to be more prone to this than others (Number 2 on my system is the worst). Some MPPTs are on a USB hub though not the worst ones and the other non MPPT devices on the USB hub have no issues at all.

2) After you reboot the GX or after a firmware update, on occasions it gets into a loop of dropping the MPPTs into the under 20 watt state permanently and even disabling/enabling them won't help. The only way to make them work again is to remove the USB cable and connect to the MPPT directly via bluetooth and disable/enable it their then this will resolve the issue. When you reconnect the USB it seems fine however another MPPT will start exhibiting the issue shortly afterwards after a random period... repeat randomly. This caries on until you reboot or apply different firmware several times and it settles down. No other USB devices are affected.

The remote support is enabled on my system and if I need to do anything to help with looking into it then I'm happy to do so.

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·
Hi @Semlohnhoj

Guy asked me to look into this.

interesting system! I'll email you directly. if we find anything we'll put the results in this topic of course.

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felix-schuchmann avatar image felix-schuchmann Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·
Hi @Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff), could I try that firmware? I'm happy to help test it out too, seems like I have the exact same problem. (see above)
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beat avatar image beat Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·
Hi @Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff)

I have the same problem from time to time and would also be interested to test the beta, we have an installation with 3 Smart MPPT 100/20 and 1 Smart MPPT 150/20 and 2 MPPT RS 450/100 (one string with same angle as one of the MPPT 100/20, as the 450/100 couldn't take the last 2 panels because of Voc, so it's relatively easy to compare).

And after many many days of clouds we finally have sunshine (and shades) forecasted for this Friday and week-end!

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Thomas avatar image Thomas Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff), i have the same Problem with my MPPTs (Blue Solar 150/35 and 100/20). If there is a beta-Firmware i would like to test it.

I'm using a MP-II GX 3000 and Pylontech batterys.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Hi @Semlohnhoj,

I have just asked for help to see if I can get an answer.

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felix-schuchmann avatar image felix-schuchmann Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) and @Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) any news on this? Seems like the test firmware (vC1.63) works well, at least for @Semlohnhoj.
There are other people also with this issue. It's also an topic here: https://github.com/helgeerbe/OpenDTU-OnBattery/wiki/Warning-about-Victron-MPPT-100-20

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knopers1 avatar image
knopers1 answered ·

what's new? I have the same problem with the Victron 100/20

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semlohnhoj avatar image
semlohnhoj answered ·

The vC1.63 version seemed to work fine then I made the mistake of installing the release version of 1.63 when it became available via VictronConnect and the problem has returned. So I'm back to square one. I'm not getting a response from support now either.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Hi @Semlohnhoj & @knopers1,

Apologies for the confusion here.

Indeed, there was a fix in a test firmware and this was not included in the 1.63 release.

We now have a new test firmware, and the fix will be included in the next release.

If you need a copy now, please let me know and I will get in touch.

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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Yes please, that would be great. It was my fault for assuming it was in the 1.63 version that popped up :)

I think there are several other people who are keen to try it in this thread as well.

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knopers1 avatar image knopers1 Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

That's good news. I would like to try the test firmware. Can you send me one? When will the firmware be officially released? I can only connect to the Victron via Bluetooth.

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beat avatar image beat Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
Hi @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) , experiencing from time to time the same issue for sure with my 3 SmartSolar MPPT 100/20 (and not excluded possibly with the SmartSolar MPPT 150/30 too).
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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Semlohnhoj, @knopers1 & @beat,

The beta with the fix is available here.

I don't have a date for when it will be included in the next normal release yet.

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knopers1 avatar image knopers1 Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

very nice, thank you very much for your support.

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beat avatar image beat Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·

Thanks @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) : Installed the vC1.64 beta on all 3 SmatSolar MPPT 100/20, will try to report any issues. I guess that 135/35 are not affected and/or that this firmware beta doesn't apply to them ?


Currently analyzing another annoying bug with ESS DC excess PV feed-in not working when battery not fully charged, and fine after that: MPPTs are being set into power limiting mode 1, curtailing DC PV for charging (this time at a lower amperage than authorized by BMS, starting upwards of 0.5 volts below maximum DVCC charging voltage) and not using maximum instead of feeding excess into grid, with even AC PV is used for charging instead of feed-in) until Battery DC voltage doesn't reach DVCC maximum charge voltage (ESS setup with AC and DC excess PV grid feed-in). I will be opening another thread for that, unless it's a known issue (MP-II's are on v508, would that be fixed by upgrading them to v510 and new ESS assistant that is "compatible with dynamic ESS" ?) ?

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wawibu avatar image wawibu Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
have the same behavior on a BlueSolar 100/20 - is a 1.64 Beta for them as well available?
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semlohnhoj avatar image semlohnhoj Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented ·
I can confirm that the issue is definitely resolved using the 1.64 beta firmware for me, thank you.
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knopers1 avatar image
knopers1 answered ·

very good, the update worked great. I'm curious if this solves the problem.

100-20.jpg



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