question

fellside avatar image
fellside asked

G100 testing UK

We are carrying out commissioning on the following Setup in the UK.

MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V (v500 FW)

Cerbo GX

ET112 (grid meter)

SMA 4000 inverter 3.42Kw PV (on AC-Input 1)

ET112 (PV inverter)

BYD battery


The system is setup in ESS mode.

All G98 checks have been carried out and the everything works as expected.

The whole house is on AC-out-1.


The DNO has set a 6KA limit on export. So G100 test is required.


G100 requirement

“The ELS must detect an excursion and reduce the export to the Agreed Export Capacity or less within 5 seconds.”


Test:

Settings, ESS, Grid Feed-in

AC-coupled PV Feed in Excess (ON)

DC-coupled PV Feed in Excess (OFF)

Limit System Feed-in (ON)

Maximum feed-in(6000W) Temporarily set to 300W for test.

Feed-limiting active(NO)


In ESS mode the Grid set point was set to -500W. System ramped up to around 500W export and sat there. There was no change to “Feed-limiting active” that stayed at NO. We assumed that “Feed-limiting active” would change to (YES) and export would be restricted to “Maximum feed-in” 300W. This did not happen. Is this because we artificially forced export by setting Grid set point to 500W. Is there another way to Force export?

We tried this with the grid tied SMA inverter charging the battery and with the Grid tied inverter turned off.

We know that in ESS mode there should be very little export. Grid tied inverter can in theory (battery full and no House loads) export max 3.42kw and we have no control over that. There is no DC coupled PV. ENA site lists Multi 5000 as capacity of 4.4kw so DNO totals that as 7.82kw potential export.


Does Grid Feed-in work for anyone. What are we doing wrong. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.


In the document G100 Declaration Victron Energy ESS


https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/victron-g100-declaration-multi.pdf


Test 1

Removed wire from ET112 (grid meter) Multi Continues exporting. But shuts down inverter and goes into pass through at 60seconds. Not 3.6 seconds as in document as above.

Unplugging rs485 USB adapter has the same result.


Test 2

Disconnected VE.Bus cable (simulates power loss on Cerbo) Multi Continues exporting. But shuts down inverter and goes into pass through at 60seconds. Not 2.1 seconds as in document as above.


“The response time under loss of communications, or loss of power, response time is less than 3s”


So we are well outside the 3 seconds. Is this again because we are forcing the export by Setting Grid set point?


Have we missed as setting or a box is not ticked somewhere?


Any help would be very much appreciated.

Multiplus-II
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11 Answers
jamesstubberfield avatar image
jamesstubberfield answered ·

If your batteries were 100% SOC, and if you had DC coupled PV of around 3kW, and if you had no house loads, and if your SMA inverter was running at its maximum output, and if you had 'Export DC coupled PV' setting turned on in ESS, then perhaps you could test the 6kW export limit. Otherwise I am not sure how you are expecting to do so?

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fellside avatar image
fellside answered ·

DNO thinks I have the potential to export, SMA 3.42kw plus Multi 4.4kw = 7.82kw. The DNO has set an export limit of 6kw. The system is not fitted with any DC coupled PV at this time.

What we need to know is does "Grid Feed-in" work or how does "Grid Feed-in" work?

https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/victron-g100-declaration-multi.pdf

How were the disconnection times in the document obtained?


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wkirby avatar image wkirby ♦♦ commented ·

When ESS is installed on the system then yes, grid feed in from DC does work.
Grid feed in works by the inverter taking energy from the DC bus and converting it to AC synchronised with the AC from the network. It is possible for DC energy to come from the battery even if a DC coupled solar system is not producing anything.
The disconnection times in the document were measured with an oscilloscope, you can see the timings in the oscilloscope screen captures.

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spazpeker avatar image
spazpeker answered ·

As your PV is on AC1 output, and the Multiplus II is set to UK grid code then it wont export more than 3.68kw

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sharpener avatar image sharpener commented ·

My DNO (WPD, now NG) wouldn't accept that and requires me to limit the inverter power as well to 3.7 kW. However they seem to think this is all that is necessary (i.e. are not adding this 3.7kW to the 3.68kW of AC-connected PV as above), and were content to rely on the Victron G100 declaration so did not require a separate test.

No great consistency of approach among DNOs it would seem.



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fellside avatar image fellside sharpener commented ·

There is a definite lack of consistency from DNO`s

Commissioning and G100 document have been sent to the DNO (ENWL) I assume they are happy with the rest of the information (SLD etc) and are waiting for the Multiplus compliance fiasco to run its course.

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iammotorhomeless avatar image iammotorhomeless sharpener commented ·

I am so confused... the more i read
My DNO (is also WPD, now NG)
and we are looking at fitting the MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V

do I fill out the G99 or look at the G100 ??

when I look at the new Type Test Register the 48/5000 is Fully type tested device for compliance with G99 Type A for the UK

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fellside avatar image fellside iammotorhomeless commented ·

You will need to fill out the G99 Form. If you are exporting less than 32A no G100. Above 32A you need G100 form. Your DNO will advise you if that is required. DNO can also set an export limit on your installation. Is this using an installer or self install. Some installers try to get the customer to submit the G99 form as they don't want the hassle. They would rather be doing easy G98 installs.

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reallywired avatar image reallywired sharpener commented ·

My DNO is NG previousally WPD, I have a three phase domestic supply, I used the sld ( thank Craig Chamberlain ) and g99 form examples posted on this site, thanks again guys. I put three multiplus 5000 ( ie one on each phase) on diagram and got a reponse next day that is okay to connect. With the following comment response

'the maximum PV we can have is 11 Kilowatts with a G100 installed and the batteries must be at zero export'

So my question what documentation and testing has to be supplied to NG for the multiplus 5000 to prove G100, @sharpener I see you recently connected to same dno with the same equipment and an export limitation.

I am just about to order victron equipment but not sure if it is g100 compatable before ordering and what to provide to DNO when istalled with regard to g100 , asked supplier they are clueless.

Fellside, did you get it solved?

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sharpener avatar image sharpener reallywired commented ·

I attached screenshots of the Remote Console settings for maximum export and maximum inverter power.

On the last page of the Form A1-2 I put the following:

Explanation / description of export limitation scheme operation including a description of the fail-safe
functionality eg the response of the scheme following failure of a:
• Power monitoring unit
• Control unit
• Power Generating Module interface unit
• Demand control unit
• Communication equipment


1. The above equipment is all internal to the Multi-Plus II inverter/charger, see attached declaration.
2. The generator output will be limited to 3.7kW in three different ways, any one of which will be sufficient to prevent the allowed output being exceeded:
• The maximum real power in inverter mode will be set to 3.7 kW instead of 4.4kW
• The battery current will be limited to 75 amps (at a nominal 48 volts)
• The aggregated export current will be limited to 16 amps (so that if the solar PV generation is working at maximum output the energy storage system output will be reduced to zero). The MultiPlus inverter/charger measures the aggregate export current using its internal current sensor, so no communication is required between it and the
Steca solar inverters to achieve this.
3. In a Loss of Mains situation the internal LoM detection will operate automatically to open the dual redundant grid disconnection relays and close the neutral-earth link relay (see page 7 of attached test.certificate <VICEN_02691_201124090551.pdf >).


Note, fail-safe tests are not required at installations where all Generating Units are EREC G83 or EREC G98 Type Tested, aggregated capacity is not more

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reallywired avatar image reallywired sharpener commented ·

Thankyou @sharpener for your response.

I originally applied for via the G99 -A1.1 form . Then got the response with a 3.68kw per phase restriction and they also replied

'once your works are complete could you please send us all the commissioning forms'

So did you complete Form A1-2 or another commisioning form to send back once installed and export to grid limited?

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sharpener avatar image sharpener reallywired commented ·
A3-2 I think but I do not seem to have a copy to hand. Best to check on the NG web site as the rules on the forms seem to keep changing.
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7hvn avatar image 7hvn sharpener commented ·

@sharpener could you elaborate on this statement a little please?

"The aggregated export current will be limited to 16 amps (so that if the solar PV generation is working at maximum output the energy storage system output will be reduced to zero). The MultiPlus inverter/charger measures the aggregate export current using its internal current sensor, so no communication is required between it and the Steca solar inverters to achieve this"

Where and how do you set this aggregated export current limit? I'm in the process of commissioning for my MPII 48/5000 and my DNO has allowed a maximum of 32A export. I have an AC solar inverter on ACOut1 and it's rated at 3.68kW (16A) maximum. An ET112 measures import/export to the grid. Whilst I don't plan to export any where near a current of 32A I need to ensure my setup cannot. Up to now the only way I have found to limit the export successfully is using a 'Grid Current Limit'. I've run tests setting 'Grid Current Limit' to 13A and 16A then artificially setting the 'Grid Set Point' to -4000W. The 'Grid Current Limit' is successfully respected. If I set this to 32A, down from 50A it should achieve the goal but then I limit the pass through capacity of the inverter (from ACIn to ACOut1).

Appreciate your thoughts. TIA.

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sharpener avatar image sharpener 7hvn commented ·

Settings|ESS|Grid feed-in|Limit system feed-in|ON

Set maximum value in your case to 7400W

1684925945790.png

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7hvn avatar image 7hvn sharpener commented ·

Try as I might I cannot get this option to work! Is your AC Inverter a Fronius one?

Every time i test setting this value it is ignored.

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sharpener avatar image sharpener 7hvn commented ·

No they are 2 x Steca Multigrid 2000. By co-incidence I was testing the setup in Inverter Only mode just now to check what happens when it is isolated from the grid as per this thread.

As expected, the Multi drops out the anti-islanding relays and simultaneously increases the output frequency to 52.1 Hz which trips off the PV on AC-Out.

1684927103944.png

As they are 12 yrs old now and frequency shift is an old standard this should work with almost any PV inverters if set up properly in VE-Configure.

But if you have a Fronius and your system thinks it has the special Fronius-only interconnection you will need to ensure that that is working correctly, which I have no idea about (not having one). IIRC though there is a special instruction sheet here somewhere for Fronius inverters you can search for.


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7hvn avatar image 7hvn sharpener commented ·
I have a SolarEdge 3.68kW inverter. It's coupled on ACOut1 and frequency shifting is configured. In a LOM event my inverter switches to Alternative Power Source (APS) mode and then the Victron successfully controls the frequency to limit generation if batteries are full and house load is low.

However when the gird IS connected APS mode on the PV inverter stop meaning frequency shift control also stops.

I have a program that connects a dry contact via AUX relay when LOM is detected which triggers APS mode on the PV Inverter then un-triggers it when grid is re-established.

Are you saying that the Victron controls the generation of your PV Inverters when grid IS connected? I.e. grid connected, batteries full, house load 400w, PV generation is 3680W, 'Maximum feed-in limit' is 1000W so the PV inverter is frequency shifted down to generating 1400W only.

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sharpener avatar image sharpener 7hvn commented ·

No, confusion on my part, this a.m. I was testing the off-grid behaviour.

My PV inverter is rated at the same as my export limit 3.68kW so on-grid it is the MPPT that the Multi controls, down to zero if necessary, to prevent export from the other 3.24 kW of panels.

As your inverter is rated the same then

i) you could limit the Multi inverter power to 3700W (as my DNO stipulates, they do not understand the Victron setup) so the total export Multi + PV) cannot exceed 32A, this will curtail the Multi by a small amount, the continuous rating is only 4400W anyway, or

ii) get the export limit to work. Perhaps it is contradicted by some other setting but I cannot think what that might be. You might have to go back and check your VE-Configure settings. Is it something to do with the Assistant that controls the relay?, or

iii) ignore the issue as a technicality since setting the Grid Set Point to a small number will prevent it exporting much anyhow. I don't know if this (as is sometimes hypothesised) is any slower to react to transients than the other limits but I doubt it as it uses the same sensors.

EDIT this won't work, if there is a surplus it overrides the Grid Set Point (see pic below, the GSP is -50W)

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fellside avatar image fellside reallywired commented ·

The system that our question related to has been running for the whole of April with 7.5kWh import from the grid. Customer is very happy.

So are NG saying you cannot export. Or Are they implying you can export 11kW.

'the maximum PV we can have is 11 Kilowatts with a G100 installed and the batteries must be at zero export'

I assume you will be using charge controllers on your PV So how much PV you have is not a concern of NG. The PV is on the DC side of the inverters. Are they thinking on a balanced three phase system you could export 4.4kW per phase. Max for each Multiplus.

You need to clarify with them how much you are allowed to export under G100. Is it 11kW?

Now the Multi 5000 is type tested you should not have to add further details about its capability. they can get that from the ENA database.

For G100 we attached the Victron G100 document and that was accepted. (different DNO)

https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/victron-g100-declaration-multi.pdf

PS Change your supplier. We have had great results from Bimble (no association)

Is this self install or have you got an installer?

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sharpener avatar image sharpener fellside commented ·
Looks clear enough that @reallywired will allowed to export 3 x 16A i.e. 3 x 3.68 = 11.04kW. But not from the batteries since the DNO says 'the maximum PV we can have is 11 Kilowatts with a G100 installed and the batteries must be at zero export'

I agree with you however that the DNO should not be concerned whether the 11kW comes from the PV or the batteries, perhaps they are worried about earning FITs by selling back stored off-peak electricity.

All academic anyway as there would not normally be any point in exporting power from the battery. But it is easy enough to stop ESS from doing this, you just have to set the grid setpoint to zero, then you can adjust the AC and DC grid feedin settings to what suits your inverter topology and allowable limit. Send the DNO screenshots to demonstrate.

By way of example I have

(a) 3.68kW of PV inverters installed in 2011, connected to AC-Out 1, which earn FITs and also

(b) 3.24kW of newer panels on a 250/60 DC charge controller, which don't.

The MPII 5k controls the latter to ensure I do not exceed the 16A export limit without curtailing the FITs.

Right now the sun is shining and I am getting 3kW from (a) and would be getting the same again from (b). But the Victron is limiting it to 1kW and there are about 300W of house loads, so the export level is maintained at exactly 3.7kW.

Perhaps if @reallywired can tell us more about the proposed setup and whether there is any existing PV we can advise further.

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reallywired avatar image reallywired sharpener commented ·
No PV at present only going to be dc side PV , I think you are correct @sharpener they shouldnt be considered with dc side but they dont want abbitrage occuring with night electric being given back in day
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reallywired avatar image reallywired fellside commented ·

thanks fellside,

I will be using charge controllers for PV on DC Side. I think they mean I can export 11KW across all three phases ie 3.68kw per phase and only export from solar during day and not from battery as the grid doesnt have enough capacity, so they dont want me offloading dirty power stored from night at cheap rate during the day. That is my interpretaion anyway will get clarification and report back. Thats fine as I dont want to export to grid from battery just excess solar.

I am a retired electrician so it is a self install but going to find someone to overlook my install for MCS for a fee if I can find one as I am not a member of MCS Scheme.

Will look at Bimble, thanks for that.

They also stipulated in the formal agreement letter:

''The customer should discuss with their electricity supplier whether they wish to purchase any electricity which is surplus to the customer's own requirements and agree the necessary arrangements for the metering. The supplier must ensure the import meter is of a type that will not subtract the number of units exported.''

I am with Octopus and have an EDMI ES-30B smart meter which is a three phase smart meter. I think they want a meter that will not subtract so we dont export on one phase to import on another and net them off as if we do this we still discharging battery to grid on other phases and not necissarily from solar during the day on cloudy days adding to the network capacity issue on the grid. The benefit of this approach of net metering or vector metering as it is known is we would only need one inverter, not one on each phase, as we could export on one phase and import on another and the cost would be zero.







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sharpener avatar image sharpener reallywired commented ·

WPD didn't require MCS certification for my self-install (and I never got a formal connection letter, just a brief email).

AFAIR any smart meter will have a separate export register, so subtracting the export will not be a problem and you will be able to claim SEG with the export readings.

But how will you benefit from the allowed 16A per phase if you only have a single-phase inverter?

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reallywired avatar image reallywired sharpener commented ·

@sharpener my understanding is MCS is for supplier (Octopus) to get onto their export tariff and not required by DNO


I will not benefit from 16a per phase if I only have a single phase meter but our loads are currently split quite evenly across all three phases, large property with ev.

I could get away with 1 inverter to export to offset other phases as our base load is only 0.5kw across all phases combined. We have peak of about 7kw on different phase for ev, ovens etc.

look at this

https://youtu.be/09ifnq1nYls

Victron can do this from what I have read but because we have been stipuled no export or sum metering by DNO so it is not viable

3 Multiplus 5000 work better for us, we have space and each inverter will have less load and we need 3 to be able to charge battery in offpeak period in winter

We will probably export very little to be fair as I have ordered a 30KWH rack battery from Fogstar.



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sharpener avatar image sharpener reallywired commented ·

It is not mandatory, Octopus have some discretion and there are people here who have got their SEG tariff without any MCS input.

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fellside avatar image fellside commented ·

G98 is up to 3.68kw (16A) per phase. G99 is above 3.68kw is (16A) per phase. G100 if export is above 32A all at 230V.

Does the UK grid code actually restricted the inverter (in software) to 3.68kw (16A) G98


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sharpener avatar image sharpener fellside commented ·
@Fellside AFAIK no, you have to set it up specifically in Settings|ESS|Limit Inverter Power = ON,

Maximum Inverter Power = 3700W

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apple047 avatar image
apple047 answered ·

Your SMA inverter is connected to AC input, therefore Victron doesn’t have any control over it. You could switch off MP ii and SMW would still generate, so not really covered by G100.

I would suggest connecting PV inverter to AC out (reconfigure ESS assistant accordingly)

MP than can monitor SMA generation via internal CTs, if batteries are full it would than disconnect from Grid (inverter still running) and increase frequency to ramp down/stop SMA inverter.

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fellside avatar image
fellside answered ·

Correct SMA inverter is connected to AC input and is in receipt of a FIT`s payment tariff. Therefore payments would be lost if moved to Ac out and throttled by frequency changing. I'm not sure if the 4000L can tolerate frequency control. SMA inverter is monitored by a ET112. So Cerbo knows and displays what the SMA inverter is doing.

Still waiting for the DNO. They seemed to think we had not returned our quote/offer acceptance form. We had, and had a record. Latest email says they will contact us within 5 day. That was a week ago, nothing!!! They could be waiting for the ENA multiplus approval. Victron, ENA, DNO nightmare.

The customer is very unhappy. I cannot believe why Victron think it is good for customer relations and for future sales to not communicate with their customers. Communication is key to a good business. We will soon be getting to the point where customers will start looking for ways to get a refund. Not sure I will be fitting Victron again. To much stress.:)

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benlongcross avatar image
benlongcross answered ·

@Fellside Just wondering if you ever managed to get the fail safe criteria of the G100 test to work - I have the same issue in that loss comms ET112 meter does not fail safe within 5 seconds - same issue on loss of CT.

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mjs500 avatar image
mjs500 answered ·

loss comms ET112 meter is comms hard wired ? or wireless link and how are you determining inverter switch off time i hop not over VRM (processing time delays between two devices )


have tested hundreds G59 to G59-3 much old test for mains decupling relays for generator you always read trip time at sore i.e. point mains decupling - mains mccb for backup generator with parallel soft return and so on for all uk DNO and over sea

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fellside avatar image
fellside answered ·

benlongcross

Have you read the first post at the top of this thread. Well we never did get any of the tests to come close to being within spec.

We were advised to submit the Victron G100 Declaration doc as others had done. At the time our DNO (ENWL) never questioned it and the system was approved. I`ve no idea how Victron got the figures they did in that document.

After the Type approval problems that went on and on (I found it quiet stressful) I have lost faith a bit in Victron. Its a great system and I like working with it. Various hardware faults, software that is always just getting there. Or seems to be in beta (EV charger) There is a lot of other good kit on the market now. Customers want reliable kit that works out of the box and software that does what they want, such as works with Octopus.

And don’t even think of comments like “you can do that in Nod Red, have fun” A customer would really love that. Sorry rant off:)

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benlongcross avatar image
benlongcross answered ·

@Fellside Thanks for your response. Yes, I have searched the forum for G100 testing and found your original post - I do think this is an issue that Victron need to confront as the DNOs will be looking to see this being demonstrated on site going forward.

As it stands, I can't offer Victron as a G100 compliant element of a system, which is a shame as the equipment and interface are very good in my experience so far.

To address the issue in the short term I am looking to rely on the export limitation and fail safe of another (Growatt) AC coupled PV inverter in the system seen as the Victron inverter rating is below the export capacity limit. Therefore, even if the export limit function fails on the Victron I can't exceed my export limit - as long as the PV inverter with export limit function has a working fail safe.

Just a little bit odd that I need to rely on the PV inverter, that is half the price of the Victron, for this important function.. My rant over :-)

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fellside avatar image
fellside answered ·

I agree entirely with your comments.

I'm looking at Sunsynk SYNK-5K-SG04LP1 Listed on ENA as G99 and G100 compliant.

https://portal.segensolar.co.za/reseller/docs/G1008.8.pdf

https://www.sunsynk.org/_files/ugd/50e58b_489ee58affde495bbf8d25894de7ec7a.pdf

So is the DNO now wanting witness test as Victron is not G100 compliant or is this the norm now for G100.

Or can we assume that inverters that are compliant such as Sunsynk will not require a witness test.

As a matter of interest what DNO ar you dealing with?

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benlongcross avatar image benlongcross commented ·

I am dealing with SSEN - I suspect the witness test was required as Victron do not seem to have a G100 compliance on the ENA type test register. However, they wanted to witness my G99 operation also despite this being on the ENA register.

I can imagine that the witness test is at some discretion by the DNO. There are all sorts of variables at play with export limitation schemes – from the location of the remote CT to the individual config of the inverter so this is probably why they want to check.

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jonstret avatar image jonstret commented ·
FYI Sunsync (last time I checked) are also not compliant with G100 Issue 2 amendment 2. They may be compliant with Issue 1 (as was Victron as this was a declaration not a test). We have passed witness testing with Victron setup but it is not an entirely comfortable situation. Just about every G99 application we submit requires a G100 export limit so we are having to reconsider using victron. We and our customers love the system so this is really really frustrating. If we can pool our experience here maybe we can come up with a solution or maybe Victron have some advice @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager)
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Jona Aal avatar image
Jona Aal answered ·

@Fellside @benlongcross

I am just having the same issues here with a system that has been installed by me for a customer who bought as lart of DIY buying group and then was out of his depth..

I did the G99 appliction for him, got approval, did the install but am now trying to tick the boxes and not getting anywhere close to satisfying the disconnection times.

Training on G98/99/100 from someone like C&G or EAL would probably be a good thing to push for since this aspect of installs seems to cause confusion and ultimately very variable installations when the very thing these standard s are trying to do is promote safety.

Like you say the old 'fix it in node red' is ridiculous and (in my opinion) should be replaced with 'see our training video on g99 comissioning tests'...


Maybe i'll start a new thread secifically dealing with these tests/methods/typical outcomes? I'm not experienced enough to put anything really useful on it though...

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benlongcross avatar image benlongcross commented ·

I managed to demonstrate the G99 function to the DNO okay - the problem I had was with the export limitation, G100. What are the disconnection issues you are getting on the G99 test ?

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