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taddy avatar image
taddy asked

G98/99 application - Multiplus ii on type test register?

Hi all. Apologies if this is a very basic question. I bought a solar kit including various victron bits (https://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/complete-packages/48vsolar/5.0kwPV-VictronMPII-5kva-10.5kwh-Pylon) and have finally found someone qualified to help me install it. He said first step was to check with DNO (Western Power) that the inverter is G98/99 compliant. They said they don't have a list of approved inverters or couldn't release it to me but to check the ENA Test type register (https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/) Prob is if you type in multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 you get several hits, some of which are compliant, some non-compliant for new installs and some awaiting assessment. Can anyone help with this? I assume it is compliant but what proof would the DNO need? Cheers. Tom, UK

Multiplus-II
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4 Answers
gazza avatar image
gazza answered ·

It is a PITA.. It was compliant before Sept 1, then a new tech spec regulation was actioned by the authority which meant that all Victron Multis and Quattros were basically returned to "Waiting Assessment" on the ENA register. The fix is a firmware upgrade for the Multi which is already available but the re-assessment has just not been finalised by ENA. The ones you see that are still compliant are just for Northern Ireland if you check the certificates. From other posts it seems that they will become compliant again it's just about when the ENA gets round to it... Not very helpful I know. On the plus side at least you can power up the Multi and upgrade the firmware to 498 before the install is completed.....

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wkirby avatar image
wkirby answered ·

The legitimate certificates are available here:
https://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/certificates

Do not wait for ENA to get around to uploading the certificates to their website, they are just a third party which collects certificates to present as an easy convenient place to find certificates for the various manufacturers.
ENA do not perform the type testing of any products. ENA do not pay a penny or put any effort towards product testing.
The manufacturers submit and pay the fees for their products to be tested at a type testing laboratory. Once the testing is complete then the manufacturer is issued with a certificate, not ENA.
The manufaturer may then opt to offer the certificate to a third party, like ENA, to host on their website when they get a moment to do so.
ENA have no authority over whether a product is type tested or not, that is up to the testing laboratory to assess.

Do not put projects on hold just because a third party (ENA) have not published a certificate yet. Download the appropriate certificate from the manufacturer's website and submit it with your application.
If you do wait for ENA to publish it on their website you'll be most disappointed to discover, after however many weeks, that it is precicely the same certificate as on the manufaturer's website.

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taddy avatar image taddy commented ·

Thanks so much.

I looked through Victron's certifcate list that you gave me and think this is the correct one (https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Certificate-ESS-G99-1-2021-Multiplus-II-48V-3K(GX)-48V-5K(GX)-24V-3K(GX).pdf).

So it looks like we have to complete a G99 type A form (here https://connections.nationalgrid.co.uk/get-connected/solar-and-wind/generation-g99) . It says "If the Power Generating Module is FullyType Tested and registered in the ENA Type Test Verification Report Register, this application form should include the Manufacturer’s reference number (the system reference)." Should we submit the application with a printed copy of the victron certifcate and put Victron certificate number where it says "Manufacturer's ref number" on this form?

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johnone avatar image johnone taddy commented ·

Hi,

I'm doing similar to you (and a Western Power customer), but using an on-grid kit: https://www.bimblesolar.com/ongrid/self-consumption/5kVA-On-grid-Victron-ESS-14kwh . Had the Bimble email the other day to say the battery boat from China has docked. If nobody says otherwise, I'll submit the form as you suggest. Be interesting to see how we each get on.

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taddy avatar image taddy johnone commented ·
Yes - finally some good news about those pylons! Best of luck with your application. Do you know exactly what docs we need to submit? I think I have to do the G99 type A1-1 (I only have 4kw of solar panels plus 10.5kw total pylon batteries) but then do we also have to do the Part 3 and Commissioning form as well? I bought the off grid kit but am going to use the grid to charge as opposed to a petrol generator or something (I may switch to completely off grid at some point). So I will have excess power going back into the grid.
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johnone avatar image johnone taddy commented ·

Re which docs to submit, going to take a good look at this tomorrow (including asking Bimble). There's a few discussions involving G99 on Green Building Forum, and as a very last resort g59projects will do apps for a fee. Don't think it'll come to that - as you'll have seen, our systems only just make it into G99 category. On the down side, DNO's will likely be snowed under with applications and so might try filtering methods like 'are you MSC registered'. We'll see ...

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/search.php?PostBackAction=Search&Keywords=G99&Type=Comments&btnSubmit=Search

https://g59projects.co.uk/g99-dno-application/

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sharpener avatar image sharpener johnone commented ·
In May I submitted to WPD their Form A1-1 (which is different from the one on the ENA web site) with mfrs ref VICEN/02691/V1, together with a single line diagram, MultiPlus II-GX data sheet, Victron G100 Declaration and the Kiwa certificate, and got just an email 3 days later by way of approval, subject to reducing the inverter power to 3.68kW max.


Subsequently I sent their Form A3-2 Installation Certificate and have heard nothing back at all.

HTH
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taddy avatar image taddy sharpener commented ·

Useful to know. Thanks Sharpener. Where can I find the "A3-2 Installation Certificate" - is that on this page... https://connections.nationalgrid.co.uk/get-connected/solar-and-wind/generation-g99

?

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sharpener avatar image sharpener taddy commented ·
WPD has been re-branded National Grid (though as a DNO they are not "national" at all) so it has all changed since my application.


However looking at the guidance document here https://www.nationalgrid.co.uk/downloads-view-reciteme/436849 there is a link to Form A3-2 on p7.


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taddy avatar image taddy sharpener commented ·

Hi Sharpener. Just about to submit form A1-1 and going to try code VICEN/02689/V2

which states awating assessment on the ENA website (although I can't see how this is different to VICEN/02550/V2). Just one more question re the A1-1 form: What is the 'generating unit registered capacity' for the Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 - would that be 4.4kW (the Output power feed in on-grid) as stated in the KIWA certificate or just 4.0kW?

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johnone avatar image johnone taddy commented ·

I'd be interested to hear how this goes. I've had the following response from nationalgrid this afternoon:

######

Hi John

I passed your query on to our Policy team to check the compliance status of this inverter and they have stated that this would be non-compliant under G98 and G99 - see below.

Hi Katy,

I’ve only assessed the Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 (with or without the GX on the end).

I don’t believe that the forms submitted demonstrate compliance with EREC G98 or G99 – i.e. I would suggest that the Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 and the Multiplus II 48/5000/70-50 GX are non-compliant.

Kind regards,

Matt

######

NB where Matt says "I don’t believe that the forms submitted demonstrate compliance " he's not referring to my forms (which haven't been submitted yet) - presume he's referring to the certs Victron have uploaded to the ENA.


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wkirby avatar image wkirby ♦♦ johnone commented ·
So Matt is referring to outdated documents on some third party website. Victron would have supplied these to ENA too, but the documents have been updated since then and ENA have not got around to uploading these to their website yet.

The updated documents are available on Victron's website and Matt can refer to those ones in the meantime.
Perhaps you could help Matt out by supplying him with this updated document for his perusal?

It now seems likely that nobody there has been referring to the latest documents.

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johnone avatar image johnone wkirby ♦♦ commented ·

@WKirby I have supplied the DNO with a link to the new docs (the ones listed as 'awaiting assessment'). I think we can assume those are the docs which Matt (the DNO's 'Policy Engineer') looked at. The problem is that DNOs "retain the right to review the suitability of the device for connection to their network." as per this text on the ENA website

"Compliant: This device and its respective documentation have been reviewed against G98/G99 and can be deemed as 'compliant'. This to the ENA's best engineering judgement and is indicative only. DNOs retain the right to review the suitability of the device for connection to their network."

https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/index?Action=Home (then click on 'A guideline to compliance status is detailed here')

To be clear, if the DNO deem the Victron kit not compliant then approval isn't possible. Be good to hear from Victron ...

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taddy avatar image taddy johnone commented ·

That's a bit concerning! Could I ask which VICEN code you gave on the A1-1 form? It seems as if Western Power are being a bit inconsistent atm.


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johnone avatar image johnone taddy commented ·

I haven't filled in any forms yet - I'm still at the stage of getting an answer to the question 'is it G98 or G99'. They first replied that it is G98, but subject to the MP-II being compliant. Yesterday I received what you've seen above. The supplier has said:

"There have been some changes to National grid G99 requirements in September and currently all inverter manufacturers have been tasked with doing firmware updates to comply. Victron has submitted new test certificates and is awaiting for these documents to be processed by the ENA (NB: this is documentation only and does not in itself mean that ENA need to, or will do any further testing)."

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taddy avatar image taddy johnone commented ·
Ah got it! Thanks John. Best of luck with it all. I'll let you know what happens with mine!
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awalkerinuk avatar image
awalkerinuk answered ·

I had some issues with UK Power Networks I used the automated system to apply and got back an email saying it was not approved. It got sent to a technical bod to look at and it was approved less than a week later. With a G100 export against the online application which they had put on.

So just set it up for non feed 'minimal' to grid as per the victron G100 pdf

My application was in August of this year.


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l81ker avatar image
l81ker answered ·

https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/Index?Action=ViewDetail&EID=67447644&tab=search


Its now status as "awaiting further info" so the ball may be back in Victrons court.


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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ commented ·
This has already been posted elsewhere, so no need to tack it onto every G99 post you can find. It will all become clear in due course.
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johnone avatar image johnone nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

Hope you don't mind me saying that "It will all become clear in due course" isn't good enough if you've ordered kit. The main issue is whether or not a firmware update will fix the problems. Reputation damage ongoing while Victron remain silent on this ...

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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ johnone commented ·
If you have ever worked with any regulator you would appreciate that it isn't always that cut and dry. This, as stated several times, is a community site, it is not an official communication channel nor the place for commercial matters.

For all of us that dedicate time to the community, it is to raise these issues through the channels we have available to us, this has been done but we, as the community, cannot help you nor provide an answer beyond that it is clearly important to the business and assuming otherwise is just incorrect.

So giving the rest of us a hard time isn't going to help you.

A complete answer can take a little time, and that will, no doubt be forthcoming.

The official contact mail addresses are on the website, you can also channel via your distributor for official help as that is also part of their responsibility.


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johnone avatar image johnone nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

"So giving the rest of us a hard time isn't going to help you." - I'd appreciate it if you would withdraw that comment. My view is that you are damaging the community by making such statements.

As for "we, as the community, cannot help you nor provide an answer" - I take it that you are merely speaking for yourself. It may be that other members could provide an opinion, informed or otherwise, on the likelihood that the compliance problems can be fixed via a firmware update. Equally, other members may be able to decipher the National Grid engineer's technical comments.

Comments on both of those issues would have been helpful. However, the likelihood of any member responding is somewhat reduced given your, what seems to me, passive aggressive response. Please consider what you write before submitting comments.

Have a good day.

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nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ johnone commented ·
You weren't asking for community help, and opinions and information have been offered by others, you were bemoaning the lack of a Victron response here. I have pointed you in a direction and stated that the greater community cannot speak officially on Victron's behalf. I have raised this internally and asked for clarification, if it can be provided, so that everyone interested can get answers but if it is an official response you are asking for, there are other channels that may be more suitable.
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johnone avatar image johnone commented ·

See more detail here

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/165317/multiplus-uk-g98-g99-non-compliance-update.html


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