Quattro 15000VA and Pylontech US3000 high voltage alarms

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Javier San Juan Costillas asked Aug 24, '21

Quattro 15000VA and Pylontech US3000 high voltage alarms

I had this setup running flawlessly without alarms (except due to imbalance at start) for almost 1 year and in the last month I started to get High Voltage alarms. I have been in touch with Pylontech and tell me that is victron causing it due to high charge voltage... But I have all the settings lowered twice in the last week and I still get this issue.

Setup:

2 x Fronius 6Kw
1 x Victron Quattro 15000VA
6 x Pylontech US3000

Looking at battery voltage-current graph, on the left we can see how in the night the battery gets charged (with the grid) and regulates very well and keeps the max voltage on batteries around 51,52V quite stable.

On the right we can see how the battery its charged during the day, with excess solar but firstly it does not charge as smoothly as with grid (even it is charging at less amps) then once charged tthe battery voltage keeps shooting up until sometimes reaches even 54V.

What is causing victron to work differently during the night and day?

Here are the limits configured in VEconfigure and even limited on DVCC too. As pylontech support recommended.

Should I even lower more the maximum charge voltage? I even limited the charge current to 2A during a few days and still got overvoltage alarms.

I have checked and all cells are balanced thus no idea what else might be going on.

Looking forward to some experienced Victron member to illustrate me why during the night and day is different.

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter Charger ESS Pylontech

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Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 25, 2021 at 11:45 AM

Here there is a finer look at the moment when the alarm comes. Pylontech support team says is due to Victron putting higher voltage than requested.

I am literally going crazy to find this issue....

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Nico Bayer Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 25, 2021 at 12:19 PM

This looks like the system is not following the max charge current set by the battery, but using its own charge algorithm or something.

My system ( 8xUS3000 + 3x Multi2 5000) follows the max charge current set by the battery until its full and then drops to 0.

Is your ESS assistant set up correctly for the Pylontech Battery? https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:pylontech_phantom

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Javier San Juan Costillas Nico Bayer commented · Aug 25, 2021 at 03:33 PM

Do you have feed in active? I thank that might be might problem. Looking at past graphs voltage never shoot up and pylontech support team says is due to high voltage charge from Quattro.

When I had feed in deactivated didn´t got an alarm... I did activate feed-in around 12May or so when I was legally allowed to. When I charge at night from grid, it works flawlesly too, I wonder what the issue is...

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Nico Bayer Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 26, 2021 at 02:20 PM

Yes i have feed in active. My battery voltage never goes above 52.5V
I have 15kw AC and 10kw DC coupled PV, all feeding power into the grid.

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Javier San Juan Costillas Nico Bayer commented · Aug 27, 2021 at 02:01 PM

Thats odd its properly configured and literally today shows a perfect example of why the Victron its doing its own thing... When DVCC says CCL 0A it has pushed into the battery and goes higher.

Either voltage or current... but something is wrong.

I wonder if @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) or @mvader (Victron Energy) could give me a hand... of support.

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Answer 1 · 2021-08-24T22:13:19Z

Jack Peters answered · Aug 24, 2021 at 10:13 PM

Might be worth giving this a read: https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start#minimum_battery_capacity

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Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 25, 2021 at 06:28 AM

We barely use 10000VA was way oversized by distributor. But having current limits and feed in activated should not be a problem at all, at the end of the day BMS sets its limits via DCVV.

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Answer 2 · 2021-08-25T06:09:16Z

Nico Bayer answered · Aug 25, 2021 at 06:09 AM

Are you feeding excess power back into the grid or is your system set up with zero feed in?

Is the communication between your GX and the battery working correctly? What are the values in the Pylontec parameters tab when the battery is fully charged (CVL CCL DCL)?

Do you have any other charger on your DC system? An MPPT charger?

Without any current into the battery the voltage should not rise. Can you measure the battery current with a current clamp and check if it is the same as shown by the Quattro?

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Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 25, 2021 at 06:24 AM

No other chargers only Quattro 15000VA

I have it set to feed in excess, no-limit. Saying this... the issue has been happening since the feed in excess has activated in the last month or so.

Communication seems fine it reduces max current while it starts to get full in the DCVV menu. See screenshot. Perhaps not to 0 CCL because last few days at 51.5V was not reaching full SOC I think.

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Answer 3 · 2021-08-25T12:08:38Z

Rob Fijn answered · Aug 25, 2021 at 12:08 PM

Hi JSJC, There is no need to set the Charge Voltage Limit in the DVCC menu, as the Pylontech BMS dictate these setting to the Victron system, you have the ESS assistant in the Quattro that takes care of this. This also externally control the MPPT ( you can verify this in the MPPT menu).

Settings would not change just after a year.. Unless the Quattro was updated and the ESS assistant was lost in this action.
Checking communications is a thing to to and verify.

Hope this helps, Regards, Rob

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Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 25, 2021 at 03:27 PM

Thats what I thought but from Pylontech support they told me to limit it in the config and I did as well inside the DVCC too, because still reaching 54V for no reason.

Thats what I thought that after a year should not suddenly change. The only difference is that now we have an ESS with feed-in active, before feed-in was disabled.

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Answer 4 · 2021-08-26T16:39:52Z

Alexandra answered · Aug 26, 2021 at 04:39 PM

@JSJC

We have experienced something similar on a system. Voltage rise at night while on grid. Not Pylontec though.

For a while we had a work around where we let the battery drop to 95% soc each night. Then found it was sometimes 93% or other random percentages close to 95. So our that was our clue then cell balance or bms was the issue.

We have pulled the battery stack out and sent if for diagnosis. Had found cell imbalances were the cause. So the pack is in rehab.

Is your system doing an absorption phase with feed in active? The other thing wit pylon, sometimes changing which battery is the master can help with the errors.

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Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 26, 2021 at 07:56 PM

All pylontech battery logs have been reviewed and was pretty well balanced, so that is not the issue :S

Will try about the master but I doubt is that if has been working for amost 1 year until feed-in was activated without issues, I bet it has to do with the feed in because at night when there is no feed in its all pulling from grid it works flawlessly...

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Answer 5 · 2021-08-30T16:26:44Z

Javier San Juan Costillas answered · Aug 30, 2021 at 04:26 PM

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) @mvader (Victron Energy) @victronteam

Is there anybody that can help with this issue???, its still happening and it is definetly a victron issue handling the charge while Fronius its producing and there is feed into the grid happening....

This will degrade batteries overtime, I bought a Victron because was recommended as solid product, well developed, good support... But I am starting to change my mind here.

Its a big issue, not only happening to my system and needs a solution.

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Answer 6 · 2021-08-30T16:50:09Z

Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered · Aug 30, 2021 at 04:50 PM

Hi @JSJC

It looks like the battery disconnects for some reason (you can see the current dropping to zero suddenly, after that the voltage goes up), and without the battery connected the inverter cannot keep the voltage stable.

Please read out battery logs / cell voltages, there might be an imbalance / defective module.

at the same time you can try to lower the maximum charge voltage in the DVCC menu to about 51 volt to see if this prevents the issues.

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Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Aug 30, 2021 at 06:58 PM

Hi Daniel,

I have reduced the maximum charge voltage to 51V previously and still happens.

It does not disconnect, it simply gets full and requires for 0A.

I have talked with Pylontech Support they got all logs from all batteries and confirm that is the Victron sending more voltage to the batteries than the one set on config. Batteries are fine no defective cells or modules.

Said this, this situation ONLY happens when its day time, batteries full and the two Fronius are producing enough to have excess fed into the grid. At night it charges perfectly and does never go overvoltage.

There is something dodgy going on. I bet if I turn of feed in it will get back to normal (as it was a month ago when was disabled)

Here there is another person having similar issues: https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/95663/pylontech-high-voltage-5396v-when-dvcc-set-to-limi.html

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Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Sep 02, 2021 at 10:14 AM

I am guessing that battery disconnections as you mention are due to high voltage and the BMS tries to get disconnected? Physically it has not been touched.

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Answer 7 · 2021-09-02T10:12:14Z

Javier San Juan Costillas answered · Sep 02, 2021 at 10:12 AM

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) @mvader (Victron Energy) @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager)

Hi again guys!

I come back with some fresh data to that shows what I meant and proofs what Pylontech Support Team is saying.

Since I have activated the Feed-in in the system the batteries have been giving overvoltage issues, not due to imbalance or defective modules (it worked great for almost one year). If there was issues on imbalance or defective it would have continued, but I tested one day with feed-in deactivated and then everything was balanced. So here are the screenshots of the data. There are two days that Feed-in was active and not limited. And last day that I deactivated the feed-in and then you can see how voltage during peak sun hours was regular not spiking like when feed-in is active.

This can cause serious harm to the batteries and has nothing to do with the BMS or battery system is about the Victron charger not functioning as expected.

It has nothing to do with charge voltage, I have tested 52V, 51.5V and as low as 51V and still got the High Voltage Alarms, and before (with feed-in disabled) it used to be 53.2V for almost one full year and never (besides initial balancing) had issues with High voltage alarms.

As you can see when charging at night any day the batteries respond perfectly and there are no voltage surges at all. Which is the norm if the charging is done at the correct voltages.

30th-31st October - Feed-in Active and no limited. (High Voltage Alarms)

1st of September (No High Voltage Alarms)

What is the cause of this and most importantly how to get it resolved.

Thanks in advance!

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Sep 02, 2021 at 10:35 AM

Hi @JSJC ,

Can you please adjust the settings to be exactly as I have shown in this answer and see if that makes any difference?

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/95663/pylontech-high-voltage-5396v-when-dvcc-set-to-limi.html

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Javier San Juan Costillas Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Sep 02, 2021 at 10:40 AM

Hi @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager)

My situation it is the opposite, I want to feed-in to be active and not limited. The other day after reading that post I did try to set a limit on feed-in and keep it high to see if that will maintain things correctly but didnt work.

I don't know what calculations are done behind in the Victron systems, but with feed-in active no limit, should be "simple", no calculations whatever is left goes to the grid and not the battery. There is no need to have a buffer in case of spikes, because they can go to the grid.

So the need is to have a solar setup, with ESS and battery backup, that feeds the grid on the day with whatever is left. But of course not damaging the batteries.....

What else could be tried?

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Sep 02, 2021 at 10:48 AM

Sometimes when troubleshooting a solution to a problem it is necessary to make adjustments that are different to your intentions to help isolate exactly where that problem might be.

Can you please adjust all the settings to be as exactly as described in that post, the main one I am interested in seeing is both AC and DC feed in enabled, for the reasons I describe in that post.

The feed in limiting is useful too because it shows the Victron system has control of the AC PV inverter.

In the case for the other user, making those adjustments seems to resolve their issue. It would be good to do the same, and then see if it has the same effect, and then we can better find the exact threshold setting that causes the problem for you.

The graphs here show no meaningful current going into the battery, and yet there is still voltage rise, which is indicative of a cell imbalance. The Victron system is not trying to charge the battery (or there would be current), but there might be very small amounts of surplus power going into the battery (DC), and might be able to be discharged back to the grid (DC feed-in enabled) when the battery voltage exceeds the target.

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Javier San Juan Costillas Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Sep 02, 2021 at 05:13 PM

Hi @Guy,

Pylontech support has read all the logs of each of the batteries and they say that its not about current but a high voltage charge, it is not charging at the limited voltage 53,2V or 52V or even 52V it goes higher than that, and probably the reason of those high voltage alarms.

Said this, I did try what you are mentioning feed in activated in DC and AC with limit active to 10000W and there was overvoltage too.

Do you want me to try with feed in active 0W? This even if it works it will not be doing what I want to do, feed in the excess....

Looking forward to your reply so I will test another full day so you can see the graphs again.

Thanks in advance!

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Sep 03, 2021 at 01:21 AM

Hi @JSJC ,

Yes, Please make the settings EXACTLY AS DESCRIBED HERE AND SHOWN BELOW, these have resolved similar issues for others, and if they resolve the issue for you then it will help to diagnose and troubleshoot what might be causing the issue. I understand these are not how you want the settings, this is a troubleshooting process, so please follow the directions EXACTLY, and precisely.

I just had a look at the system linked to your email address on VRM, I can't see any high voltage alarms for the last couple of days, and battery voltage is not exceeding 52V.

Am I looking at the right system?

Voltage, Current and Watts are intrinsically linked in a relationship known as the Power Law.

When charging a battery, if a negligible amount current leads to a large change in battery voltage, it is not that the system is trying to charge the battery to a higher voltage, but that the battery is very sensitive and reactive.

You can see the current line when the system IS trying to charge the battery up to 52V, there is lots of current required, and very little slow change in the battery voltage.

Once the Victron system detects the battery voltage has reached the target of 52V, the system reduces the current to nearly zero this is shown in the graphs above.

The Victron system expects the battery voltage to also remain there, but it doesn't, the battery voltage continues to rise, and dramatically over the 52V target, despite nearly no current being provided by the Victron system.

I have explained the reasons for why this can happen in the linked post above, and what a possible remedy can be.

So please follow the suggested settings exactly, and then we can have a look at the data to see the results.

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Javier San Juan Costillas Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Sep 03, 2021 at 05:33 AM

Hi @Guy,

Thanks for confirming, I have set that config right away and we will see how the day responds.

Yes that is the right system and the reason for no alarm logs its that I deactivated feed-in so that makes it be stable again, but thats not how we want it... we will follow the full troubleshoot procedure and see.

I perfectly understand Power Law and I guess Pylontech support I guess it does too, said this when a battery is full and you keep pushing power into it goes overvoltage.

In case this helps here is the conclusion of Pylontech support:

I had literally exchanged over 60 emails with Pylontech support, multiple time battery logs, screenshots setups... and I was firm supporter that Victron was not doing nothing strange and it had something to do with the batteries.

I started reading this forum and found more people with similar issues, then looked into the Victron logs and realized that at night (charging from grid with exact same settings) there was perfect balance and no overvoltage alarms.

After that I realized this might be due to the feed-in setting change that was done a month or so back (once the grid allowed us to feed power into it). I sent those 3-day screenshots so you could clearly see it too that the settings change was creating that issue, but we will troubleshoot the full process to take conclusions and not let me guess about it because I do not know the inner brain of this Victron at all.

Will keep you posted as soon as there is meaningful data today.

Thanks for your help!

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Javier San Juan Costillas Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ commented · Sep 03, 2021 at 01:10 PM

Hi @Guy

If the setup is like that then the battery does not shoot up in voltage.

So what can we do now to make sure that we feed in all excess?

Looking forward to hear your news :)

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Answer 8 · 2021-09-29T21:21:11Z

Javier San Juan Costillas answered · Sep 29, 2021 at 09:21 PM

@mvader @Guy @Daniël, is there a chance I can get somebody to reply either here or email?? Its been over a month since this critical issue has been communicated and there is no active feedback/solutions from Victron.

Really need a solution to the Quattro not being able to stop charging when its set to STOP, and as well not sending more voltage than its configured to. If feed in is activated with no limits it should feed to the grid not to the batteries full batteries.

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Answer 9 · 2021-10-19T19:50:46Z

Javier San Juan Costillas answered · Oct 19, 2021 at 07:50 PM

Thanks @Daniël for keeping an eye on this over email.

We came to a conclusion after multiple tests, that the issue why the battery was overcharged was due to Input Current Limit being very low, in my case 12A. In this case ESS feed in will have issues feeding into the grid and overcharge battery if there is large charge going on.

I tested now leaving higher grid Input Current Limit when battery is almost 100% charged, and no issues whatsoever with the battery voltage.

Awesome, thanks again!!

PD. I will keep spreading the Victron love around :)

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shaneyake commented · Oct 21, 2021 at 03:31 AM

Glad it is all sorted now!

Can you explain why you had such a low AC input limit? Being you have a 15kva inverter?
Just curious as I didn't think about that when reading your post.

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Javier San Juan Costillas shaneyake commented · Oct 27, 2021 at 10:36 AM

The reason is because during the day the input limit is very low (to pay less to grid) than during the night (that is quite higher), during the day mostly is all feed-in or solar consumption and during the evening-night its all battery/grid consumptions.

I thought was good to keep limit automated in the input limit, and was changing it via MQTT. Took us a few months figure it out because was something that as a user I would think will affect ( it is called Input Limit :) )

So happy all is sorted :)

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shaneyake Javier San Juan Costillas commented · Oct 29, 2021 at 08:04 PM

If you are running ESS, it is best to set input current limit at the real current limit. IE, the input breaker limit.

You then control the "ESS grid setpoint". This is what you should be controllering if you want to automate ESS.

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Paul B commented · Oct 30, 2021 at 06:57 AM

The battery voltage should never go high ie if the batteries are full and the grid has disconnected (ie a Grid power failure) then the ess should raise the Frequency to say 53 hz and then your grid tie inverters should DERATE or turn off so that the battery is NOT overcharged. So make sure you have the frequency settings correct set to suit your grid tie Inverters. The frequency iss et in the ESS assistant Ie mine start at 50.30 then then at 53hz the grid tie solar units are fully shut down

50.3 full output

50.4 : De-rated to 90% max output

50.5 : Derated to 80% max output

50.6 : Derated to 70% max output

50.7 : Derated to 60% max output

etc

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Answer 10 · 2021-10-30T05:42:13Z

raymiller answered · Oct 30, 2021 at 05:42 AM

Thanks for finding out the solution to the High Voltage problem! Maybe changing the wording from "Input current limit" to "Input and Export current limit" would be a simple aid?

The confusion with setting the input current too low for maximum export could be avoided with the Quatro/MultiPlus reporting all logic True conditions, not unlike the MPPT regulators reporting their current operating state or similar, maybe even on the VRM graphic. While the MulitPlus II does report some logic states reporting of opperating/exception conditions would be more than useful.

As complexity is increased in our energy storage systems and more new people are exposed to them adding in smarter tools to support the complexity seems in order.

Victron, keep up the good work.

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Quattro 15000VA and Pylontech US3000 high voltage alarms

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