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punda avatar image
punda asked

Why is the Multiplus so outdated?

Hello,

I've lurked a bit on this forum and gathered useful information here, but have not found the answer to this question.

I first bought the Smartsolar 100/30 and was quickly impressed with its performance, value for money and easy accessible setup and configuration over bluetooth. I then decided on, but have yet to buy, the Smart BatteryProtect and BatterySense, both which communicates with the user, and other Victron products via bluetooth.

Now I just received my Multiplus, and although I knew it didn't have bluetooth setup, I was not prepared for how cumbersome it is to use! While the Victron Connect app is one of the most usable and enjoyable apps on my phone, and it shows a real effort has gone into designing it (taking usability and the user's needs into account), the VE Configure is a design leftover from the 90's. It is old, outdated and not very usable.


Has there been a generational change in the Victron staff, with new competence creating all the Smart products, taking the user's needs into account, and this change has not reached the Multiplus-department? Some old manager thinking "this is how we do it here"? Or is it to save on cost?

The bluetooth functionality is built in to products that costs 50-70 euros, so in a Multiplus that costs several thousand euros, the cost of the bluetooth hardware would be negligible. The same with the software, there are clearly someone able to design great functionality and apps within their organisation(s), that already has done so for several of their products, and adapting this or writing new software is not a great cost when you have the competency in-house and they already know the systems, the products and are doing a great job.


With the multiplus, one has to buy additional hardware to even set it up for first time use, since the configuration of the dip-switches is severely limited. So yeah, Victron will sell more of the old-fashioned computer interfaces. And if one buys those, one is met with an interface (VE Configure) that cannot have cost the company more than a pair of clogs in development over the last 15 years.


So while the cheaper Victron products give me a joy of ownership through their well designed interfaces, in addition to their performance, the Multiplus gives me a headache. I considered buying a cheaper chinese inverter/charger that had a display and buttons, with which I could configure all I wanted to. My experience with the smaller Victron products convinced me to go for the Multiplus, but I am currently regretting it.


Multiplus-IIMultiPlus Quattro Inverter Chargermultiplus ve.bus
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7 Answers
Matthias Lange - DE avatar image
Matthias Lange - DE answered ·

You can also use VictronConnect with a MultiPlus, but you don't have all options jet(assistants).

As far as I know they are working on it to make all settings available in VictronConnect.

I don't know what is planned about making the settings available via Bluetooth.

I guess one though behind it is to make the settings not to easy to access for the end user. If the end user can access the settings to easy he starts to play around with it and mess up his system and/or damage it.

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Dosheimer avatar image
Dosheimer answered ·

You can use a VE.Bus Smart Dongle (around 80 EUR) connected to the Multiplus via RJ45 cable to have access via Bluetooth. First when I bought my Multiplus I thought the same like you, but later I came to the conclusion that 230V systems is nothing for private end consumers playing around in the settings in bluetooth. Therefore I have some understanding to make this more difficult just in case this was the idea behind by Victron engineers.

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justmurph avatar image justmurph commented ·

Unfortunately the VE.Bus Smart Dongle is useless if you also use a VE.Bus BMS. You can't control or do anything with it.

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ben avatar image
ben answered ·

I'm not a Victron developer, but I think most everything works against your dream:

1. Inverters are much bigger, more expensive, and there's a lot more equipment and livelihood at risk. Casual configuration is probably unrealistic for the whole scope of what they can do.

2. Victron has retained a lot of backwards-compatibility: new inverters roughly have the same hardware and firmware capabilities that the old ones do. The computers in there are reliable, running reliable software. But they are very limited and no doubt difficult to work with.

3. The general programmability of the units is broad enough that moving to a different architecture will be a big lift. They are probably prioritizing compatibility (and reliability) over convenience and a modern UX.

4. Many inverters are installed by pros, and the pros don't really care as much about walk-up complexity. Whichever mechanism is fast and reliable is what they would prefer.


All that said, I think we'll see the whole platform move to the new config architecture "soon"... like, in the next 5 years. :-)

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punda avatar image punda commented ·
Hello,

I see both your, and Dosheimers, point that it should not be too easy to change the parameters in casual configuration. But, I can't even configure it for use without buying the dongle! And when the dongle is bought, then the access to the configuration is available to change again.


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Elimac avatar image
Elimac answered ·

Punda, I don't share your opinion. What do we want of an Inverter? That sometimes powers a house? We want reliability! Not so much lots of minor features, User interface, etc...

Look at Multiplus generation I - it uses many THT componnents that you might consider from the 90s. I consider it a big PLUS! Those components are more robust, resilient to humid and dusty environments than more recent SMD. The Multiplus inverter is a mature and robust product, you should appreciate it from this angle!

After it is setup, I rarely touch it! If ain't broken, don't fix it...I only upgraded its firmware once in 3 years, and only because I added a 2nd unit. I also think you are a little unfair with Victron. Actually, they have been working in bringing some features to VRM.

Maybe you have a point in small units, but for the big powerfull ones, I hope Victron keeps the proven design of Multiplus 1 for a while still!

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punda avatar image punda commented ·
Thanks for the reply. I may have emphazised the wrong elements in my first post. It does not need to be unconventional or radically new, it just needs to be accessible. You say that you rarely touch it after first configuration, and I think the same will apply to me. But to make a first configuration I need to buy yet another piece of hardware because I cannot put it to use without it! If they had included the bluetooth functionality I could have configured it once, and leave it until another piece of hardware in my system changes.
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rslifkin avatar image
rslifkin answered ·

The configuration stuff for the Multi isn't as good as the rest of the Victron gear, but it's not terrible by any means. And remote VEConfigure works just fine if you have a GX device.

Honestly, my biggest complaint with the Multi isn't configuration, it's the charge algorithm. Compared to the rather good charge algorithm in the MPPTs, the one in the Multi is junk. It desperately needs an adjustable re-bulk voltage target as well as the ability to end absorption based on tail current (using the shunt data via DVCC), both of which the MPPTs have.

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iand avatar image
iand answered ·

Does anyone know if the Multiplus II (and new Quattro II) are any more up-to-date as far as programming is concerned? And how about charging algorithm?

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roamer105 avatar image
roamer105 answered ·

No direct Bluetooth. More over there is almost no difference to the older product. The specs and physical size suggests that if you have a 3KW/120V older Multi-plus you are better of with it. I might like the physical connections better (from the picture at least) but that is about it.

Overall, i think the main difference is that Victron decided to borrow from the larger inverters to make the 3KW one, while the older version seems to "push" the smaller version to create the 3KW one. This may imply that the newer multi-plus (at least the 3KW version) is more robust than the older one but it is physically bigger and slightly less efficient in some modes.

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iand avatar image iand commented ·
It seems a pity that Victron didn't use the introduction of MP-II and Q-II to update things like the programming/UX and charging algorithms -- it would have been trivial to provide a "compatible mode" where they behaved exactly like the older versions for people who wanted this.


So the only real improvement is lower zero-load power (and hopefully meeting the specified number this time)...

Or maybe they're being launched with compatible software, but the updated hardware (especially CPU inside means that more options can be added in future?

Can anyone from Victron comment?


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