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offshore asked

25,6V 50Ah Lithium Super Pack

I tested the new Lithium 25.6V Lithium Super Pack batteries. The voltage of the brand new batterie was 26,2V. For testing I connected one battery with a Phoenix 24/800 Inverter. While starting the inverting, I immediately heard the battery relay clicking --> the batterie has no voltage. I disconnected then the inverter, and after 15s I heard again the relay click --> the batterie was back at 26,2V.

Then I tested again the inverter, again the relay click, and I have no voltage. I disconnect the inverter and waited, but the batterie is still "dead." At the battery pole I messure 11.1V. I waited one day, but nothing happened. I try to charge the batterie, but also without a result, the internal battery relay is off.

What can I do? Did I receive a defective battery? I don't dare to unpack and test my other batteries.

SuperPack
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offshore answered ·

I've tried different chargers, but the battery seems to be dead, on the terminals are always 11.1V. Was that a defective device or is this battery not even able to operate such a small inverter?

I am really horrified.


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klim8skeptic avatar image klim8skeptic ♦ commented ·

So what are you using as a battery charger?

I would have expected better manufacturer information regarding usage and charging ?

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offshore answered ·

Does anyone have any idea how to "wake up" this battery?

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dgnevans answered ·

The internal switch is for over voltage / current and undervoltage protection. just confirm you have not reversed polarity somehow?

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offshore avatar image offshore commented ·

Yes, I confirm I have not reversed the polarity.

On the phone Victron said it is because of the Input capacity of the Inverter. At the beginning, I heard that the internal relay was opening and after around 15s closing, then the battery tried again to connect, but after 2 times, the batterie stoped.

Now my question is, is this battery defective and, above all, I don't dare to test the other batteries in identically way.

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klim8skeptic avatar image klim8skeptic ♦ offshore commented ·

I think you should read the user manuals/installation manuals @ Victron Energy.

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offshore answered ·

@klim8skeptic Yes I read these 2 pages of Datasheet, a real user manual or installation manual is not available. (which I think is really strange)

I asked Victron if one battery can handle a Phoenix 24/800 - they don't know.

I asked if the tested battery is now damaged- they don't know, probably yes.

I asked if I can test all other batteries the same way- no.

What can I do? I have 24 of these batteries and would like to use well over 100 batteries a year, but I have absolutely no confidence in this battery if I can't even test it with one single small inverter.

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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

Even a single 50Ah LiFePO4 battery should handle a 24/800 inverter without issues.


Maybe before trying with another LiFePO4 battery, test the inverter with some cheap lead-acid batteries?


Also first connect the negative wire, then use a resistor or an incandescent light bulb to connect the positive wire through that first, then immediately connect the wire directly.

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offshore avatar image offshore seb71 commented ·

@Seb71 i tested the Inverter with AGM batteries- no problem.

Another Super Pack Battery worked with "pre charging" the capacitor from the Inverter.

In my final setup, I have 20 x 25,6V 50Ah Super Pack Batteries, will they handle the inrush current from a big 24V 8000VA Quattro? I can't pre charge the Inverter all the time. Will they handle a 7kW electro hydraulic motor?

These are questions that I am very concerned about when such a battery cannot even handle a small load.

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seb71 avatar image seb71 offshore commented ·

It's not the load, it's the high initial current until the capacitors are charged.


20 batteries: that's a lot of batteries in parallel. You should use busbars (and equal length wires), not just wires from one battery to another.


Why didn't you went for 48V system and for bigger cell capacity (different battery)?


Do you plan to frequently connect/disconnect the inverter from the batteries?

But with so many batteries I don't think this will be an issue.


That 7kW load might be too much for Quattro 24/8000.

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offshore avatar image offshore seb71 commented ·

@Seb71 thanks for your answer.

Yes I know, its the capacitor, but i dont know what capacity the batteries can handle. In the datashet only written: "the battery may disconnect when a load with a high input capacitance is connected, such ans inverter. The battery will however retry and connect after approximatly 10seconds."

The system is for a boat, with lots of 24V loads, so I can't use a 48V batterie.Of cause I use busbars and all wires to the busbar have the same length.

Yes the Inverter has a Battery switch and so the customer can for example turn on & off the Inverter one time a day.

The 7kW motor runs at 24V DC, so the Quattro has nothing to do with it, but I don't know if these batteries can handle the inrush current.

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seb71 avatar image seb71 offshore commented ·

Some DIY-ers are making "permanent" pre-charge circuits. One example.

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

Hi @Offshore

It sounds like there is something wrong with your battery, please contact your dealer about it. I'd just try the second one.

an 800VA inverter should be fine to just connect, but the best way is always to pre-charge the bus by first connecting through a resistor (lightbulb works) and then connecting the battery.

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offshore avatar image offshore commented ·

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff)

Thanks for the answer, I order directly from Victron. How many Batteries do I need in parallel to use a these batteries with a Quattro 3000VA and a Quattro 8000VA without pre-charge first?

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ offshore commented ·

You don't want to connect those big inverters without pre-charge, but it's easy: just start the inverter on AC input, and it will charge the DC bus for you.

How many batteries you need: look ad max discharge current of battery and inverter.

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offshore avatar image offshore Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff)

yes I have to connect these Inverters without pre-charge, to give first AC is not an options, that's why I need to know, how many batteries I need in parallel, so that they have no problem with the capacitor from the Inverter.

Also I have a 24V 7kW DC motor which have also to be powered from this batteries and now I'm not sure how much the batteries can really handle.

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ offshore commented ·

@Offshore

Than use a pre-charge circuit.

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offshore avatar image offshore Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) absolut not possible on a boat. There is a regulation that every switch (including the main battery switch) can be operated without causing damage to people or equipment. It is not permissible that e.g. the batteries are damaged if someone does not pre-charge the inverter.

There has to be a capacity that can be safely operated on a single battery so that I can calculate how many batteries I need for a Quattro 8000.

Again, also for the 7kW 24VDC motor, i have to be sure, that i can run this load, with these batteries.

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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ offshore commented ·

7 kW is roughly 300 amps at 24 volts, so divide that by the maximum continuous discharge current.

Pleas do use a pre-charge, and don't disconnect under normal use.

try to connect such a unit to a battery and see how big the spark is...that is what happens inside your switch also...

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offshore avatar image offshore Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

@Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff)300A should be manageable with 6 batteries (each 50A cont. 100A max for 10s), but I am pretty sure that the internal electrical system will cut off the battery due to the inrush current.

Really I can't use pre-charge, I saw more then 100 boats around the world with a Quattro and no one has a pre-charge system. We have big 500A switches, the inrush current is absolute no problem for them they can even be switched during operation at 300A (which I would never do, however)

Even in the Victron headquarters there was no pre-charge system installed in the Demo Quattro.

Hence my question, how many batteries do I need in parallel to safely switch on a Quattro


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