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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image
lorenzo-accaroli asked

Off grid inverter with batteries/no ess

Hello everyone,


I do really think that I need your help to understand how does my system work.

I have an off grid inverter QUATTRO with a floaded lead acid battery 48V and two regulators, i don't have an ess.

The installation was quite long and the technician didn't really explain how the system works.

Could you please explain me the process between PV, batteries and loads during the day and the nights.

It seems to me that in evening and night my batteries don't partecipate so only grid gives power, even if loads are few hundres.

Thanks so much



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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image
lorenzo-accaroli answered ·

Only to add the situation this morning. No current from battery and a fake pv inverter power (no sunlight right now!) that it seems to be the grid. What's wrong? Please help! 20210115-070152.jpg


20210115-070152.jpg (223.2 KiB)
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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

You have to go through the settings of your GX device and check how your system is setup there.

For instance, do you have anything under "Settings"-"PV Inverter"?

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

I checked out, in "PV INVERTER" I have nothing... I guess I don't have PV Inverter

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image
lorenzo-accaroli answered ·

Hello again,

I wish to give you pictures about my system:

  1. QUATTRO 48/10000/140
  2. 18 panels sectioned in two different lines so I have
  3. SmartSolar MPPT 150/85 - Tr VE.Can
  4. SmartSolar MPPT 250/100 - Tr VE.CAN
  5. CCGX Controller
  6. 48 Volt battery floaded lead acid

No ESS. OFF GRID.

I give you pictures of the UPS and of the current status and the graphs which came from MPPT bluethoot monitoring, As you can see even if I have 50 V the battery is not giving any power now that is evening here. During the day the Battery was in bulk during charge and gave power to the loads, than battery simply stopped giving power. I'm frustrated about this.

20210115_181808.jpg20210115_181824.jpg20210115_181842.jpg20210115_182925.jpg


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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

At least the PV inverter vanished now from CCGX display. Have you done a reboot of CCGX?


Strange.

You have 439W AC loads.

0W from PV (so night time probably).

If you are off-grid, then those 439W of power can only come from the battery during the night.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Yes i reboot the ccgx, and of I go to find the pv inverter info I can't find anything... I'm in italy so here there is no sun right now... But the voltage still cane from the grid not from the battery. I intend with off grid the pv/battery system, but my home have the connection with pubblic grid (no ess).

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

So you are not off-grid.


Still some puzzling things:

The "Mains on" LED from the inverter is off.

On CCGX display there is nothing on "AC in" (the red box).

It seems that you only have one AC cable connected to the inverter. Normaly you would have the grid connected to AC In 1 and the loads to AC Out 1 (and maybe some loads to AC Out 2).

Or that AC cable might have more that 3 wires. But does not look that thick.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

First of all thanks for your time Seb :)

In pictures you can find what is connected to inverter20210115-201902.jpg


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seb71 avatar image
seb71 answered ·

In CCGX go to "Settings" then "DVCC".

See if DVCC is enabled and if yes, check there if "Shared Current Sense" is enabled.

If yes again, check which device is selected as current sensor (under SCS Status).

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image
lorenzo-accaroli answered ·

Dccc was off. I enabled ma no scs is shown20210115-200242.jpg


20210115-200242.jpg (2.1 MiB)
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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

It seems that you do not have a shunt (SmartShunt or shunt from BMV). The shunt is a device which measures the current going in or out of the battery.


Still, any change after enabling DVCC?

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seb71 avatar image
seb71 answered ·

What you have in the main menu of CCGX (under "Device list")?

Your MPPT chargers and the Quattro inverter should be listed there.


Enter the Quattro Inverter and make pictures of all the parameters from there (it is a longer list; you have to scroll down to see everything).


Edit:
Also go to "Settings" - "System setup" and make pictures.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image
lorenzo-accaroli answered ·

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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

Also go to "Settings" - "System setup" and make pictures there.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image
lorenzo-accaroli answered ·

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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

Since you do not have a shunt, the battery current is (or should be) reported by the Quattro inverter. Which reports 0A from the battery in your case.

Your system also reports nothing from AC In (Disconnected).

Both AC In (1 and 2) are enabled and set as "Grid" (and most likely only one should be enabled). But leave that as it is, for now.

But you have AC loads powered by something.

-------

If you had DVCC disabled and then changed it to enabled, set it back to disabled (at least for now).

You did not answer the question if enabling DVCC changed anything on the main CCGX display (the one with the schematics of your system).

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Sorry I've commented below..By the way after enabling Dvcc nothing changeed on GX main page...

It could be something related to the fact that battery doesn't perform all three charging stages? Today with the sun the battery made more then 8 our in bulk phase

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

I don't think the duration of Bulk explains this.


Do you have VRM?

If yes, download the settings file of your Quattro inverter and then open it with VEConfigure 3, to see how it is configured.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Unfortunately I'm waiting for internet provider to connect my house... So I don't have vrm yet

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seb71 avatar image
seb71 answered ·

Another strange thing: you have two SmartSolar chargers, but CCGX shows only one of them (SmartSolar 150/85 VE.Can).

Instead of the other (SmartSolar 250/100 VE.Can), CCGX shows a BlueSolar battery charger.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

True... With the Bluetooth i can see the right chargersscreenshot-20210116-001001.jpg

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Are the chargers updated to the latest firmware?

Which firmware version is your CCGX?

Some issues might be due to old software.


Also, in CCGX go to "Settings" - "General" and confirm that "Demo mode" is disabled (I think it is, but there are too many strange things with your system).

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

EDIT: Demo mode not active

Chargers for sure i made update with technician, ccgx firm is 2.32


20210116-002348.jpg

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seb71 avatar image
seb71 answered ·

Your old firmware version for CCGX (v2.32) might be the cause of these strange issues.


If your Quattro Inverter has a recent firmware version, then it might not be supported by the old firmware in your CCGX.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Quattro firmware version is 430... Can I update ccgx firmware by myself?

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Yes, you can update the CCGX firmware.

Either by connecting it to the Internet or by using an microSD card or USB stick.

Check the CCGX manual.


That Quattro 430 firmware version is not recent, either. This one you can only update it with a MK3-USB interface.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Ok I'll update ccgx firmware tomorrow! For the quattro I need to ask technician i guess... I'll keep you update tomorrow and again thanks a lot!

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image
lorenzo-accaroli answered ·

20210116_130229.jpgToday, sunny day, it seems to work correctly like you can see in picture... Then cross the finger for this evening...


UPDATE: CCGX firm updated. Now my two smart solar are correctly displayed. SCS on DVCC tells that no sensor installed

UPDATE:now that is working i check what my grid provider current meter displays as instant Power and it tells exactly 12 W the same amount of the Yellow "pv inverter" as second picture shows20210116_130613.jpg.. it could be that for some incorrectly cabling if I set on general->grid measurement->pv inverter i see in the second yellow box what is expected to be seen in the red one?


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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

First picture is mostly like it should be for your system.

In the second picture the PV Inverter should not be there, since you said you do not have one. So do not set a PV Inverter manually anywhere.

In the "device list" (in CCGX main menu) yesterday you had a Grid Meter. I assume this is installed on your house power line somewhere. And if you are not using ESS I wonder why you have an external meter (if you indeed have such a thing).


What other options you have in "general->grid measurement"?

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

I have an external meter installed by power company... In italy we must have this kind of stuff, in order to count the kW for the bills.. if I switch off this all house included UPS is off... Some times ago I had above 3kW of absorbing but 300W of solar because sun is low know.. i heard a switch off sound from QUATTRO and now power is coming from the grid and some W are charging batteries but not Power from them... Bulk phase

EDIT: on grid measurement- have "public grid "generators", "shore" and "pv inverter"






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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

I am not talking about the energy meter from your power company (unless that one is connected to your CCGX).

But in certain situations (for instance if using a Quattro in ESS mode) you have to install a separate external meter. From your CCGX device list it appears you have some grid meter connected to CCGX.


---

Regarding this:
"i heard a switch off sound from QUATTRO and now power is coming from the grid and some W are charging batteries but not Power from them... Bulk phase"


I suppose now your 'mains on" LED from Quattro is turned on. When charging the batteries from the grid, you don't also discharge them at the same time. The AC loads are powered directlly from grid.


How the inverter behaves when grid is on depends on how it is configured. Without VRM or without a MK3-USB interface (and a PC/laptop), you can't find how it is configured (Virtual switch or assistants, what grid code is set, minimum voltages, etc.).

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

And:
What other options you have in "general->grid measurement"?

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented · 
on grid measurement- have "public grid "generators", "shore" and "pv inverter"


The last 3 for sure are not correct in your case.


So if those are the only options, set "public grid" and check what is the result.


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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

In one of your pictures with the system, I can see that grid meter above the 150/85 charger.

There is a black cable attached to it and tied in a bundle in front of the charger. That cable should go to CCGX.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Yes it's a carlogavazzi component.. i removed this connector from ccgx and what disappeared was loads meter... by tomorrow I will sketch out all suggestions and questions and points that we are considering

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

If your installer used that energy meter, I do not understand why he did not configured your system as ESS (without grid injection, if you don't want or can't inject power into the grid).

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

It was the thing that bother me from the moment I begin to understand how the system works... In the settings no ess is visible so I think I don't have it. And now again this is the situation from about 16pm..20210116-180144.jpg

And what do you think about these two strange switches?

20210116-175515.jpg

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

"I suppose now your 'mains on" LED from Quattro is turned on. When charging the batteries from the grid, you don't also discharge them at the same time. The AC loads are powered directlly from grid."

Today with the sun no power came to the grid power meter so the loads where fed by pv and battery... Then shut down... It seems that during evening battery is useless, that is a non sense


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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Those look like contactors and are probably mechanically interlocked (when one is on the other is off).

Possibly used to bypass your solar system and power your house directly from the grid.


It's strange that your installer did not explain anything to you. Or even better, give you the schematics of the entire system.


Regarding the CCGX - I would go through all its menus and sub-menus (without changing anything) and check to see if some setting seems wrongly configured.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

And what if batteries are simple buffer that helps during day to fulfill all power need by the house?

So during night only grid is connected... The fact is that I'm not too into those topic and the distributor was never clear... Now that I know what is an ess I think that is what I expected to have...



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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

ESS with "Keep batteries charged" mode would work kind of like that.


Can you test what happens if you turn off the power from your energy company?

Like a simulated power grid blackout test.


Does the system switches to the battery?

Or you lose all power in the house?


Before testing this (if you do it), turn off all appliances. Leave on only some lights.


Edit:

And get a working flashlight before testing this.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Ok so, i shut off the company power and the battery supply energy without problem unless a bip alarm from the ups... Now I switvht on company feed and the battery stops giving power

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Probably your Quattro is configured with one of Hub-1 modes.

"Hub-1" is a so called "assistant", like ESS. In most cases Victron recommends using ESS instead of Hub-1.


Did your Quattro started to charge the battery from grid after you connected the grid back on?

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

No, it doesn't..

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lorenzo-accaroli answered ·

Ok then, i finally bought a MK3-USB cable- Attached you can find the settings of quattro and assistant. Battery is now at 50v but still don't give power during night. tested SG, battery manufacturer tells it is ok. Please tell my why the behavoir isn't the one I expectedSET.pdfImmagine 2021-02-07 182526.jpg


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set.pdf (240.6 KiB)
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seb71 avatar image seb71 commented ·

I see that some posts are deleted now and I can't remember all the details.


From the latest screenshots:

- You have an assistant which closes/opens K1 relay from Quattro. Follow the wires from that to see where they go and what are they controlling.

- No grid code set. Don't hurry to set a grid code, because you have only one chance. Afterwards, you will need a password to change it again. But without a grid code set, you can not use ESS for instance.

- The charger from the Quattro is disabled for some reason.


You have to check the CCGX settings, too.


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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Charger is off because I have two MPPTs i guess... No need for grid because I can't sell to grid extra power.. i Simply don't catch why my battery didn't give power

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Not sure what K1 relay does in your system.

Maybe you could try the inverter by itself (without CCGX), to see if it powers the house from the batteries.

You can't ask your installer anything about how he set up your system?

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

My installer disappeared... And never explained me how the system should work... He only switch off the inverter "because it's winter and cloudy"... I ask him two or three times if I can switch on inverter but never answered... To exclude CCGX what I have to do?

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Do this during the day (just in case you leave your home without power).

Turn off devices powered by the inverter.

Turn the inverter off.

Unplug the RJ45 cable from CCGX.

Turn the inverter on.

See if now it is using the batteries.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Thanks Seb. But how can I see if it is using batteries? From the VEconnect?

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Your lights and appliances will work. :)

Also the "Inverter on" LED from the Quattro will be on.

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Ok I've made the test... Battery now giving power, but if I now switch off inverter i lose power, even if company external meter is on... And an alarm is bipping now

Edit: a fuse blown the one of the ac input to inverter


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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Btw despite the fuse, this night battery works as i expected... Now I'll check sg to have the feeling of the real soc...

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seb71 avatar image seb71 lorenzo-accaroli commented ·

Fuse or circuit breaker?

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lorenzo-accaroli avatar image lorenzo-accaroli seb71 commented ·

Rapid fuse 1A 250V

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