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pmolettiere avatar image
pmolettiere asked

Disconnecting Large DC Loads

Hi! I've been searching here, but haven't found any discussion around this question.

I'm looking at setting up a large lithium house bank on a boat (800Ah) to drive both DC loads and a multiplus inverter and a VE.Bus BMS. I understand that the BMS should be able to switch the load off under certain conditions. The suggested route is to use a BatteryProtect, and the remote option on the Multiplus.

Switching the Multiplus seems straightforward, but switching the large DC load less so. Max DC ampacity for the load is roughly 600A, although the highest current draws are very intermittent — windlass (100A), electric winches (200A x 2). Even so, my understanding is that I need to switch everything off when indicated by the BMS.

The largest constant current ampacity I see for the BatteryProtect is 220A. While some loads are intermittent, when in use, they may be used for minutes at a time, so I think I must remain within the continuous current rating for the Battery Protect.

What's the best way to switch this DC load?

I've considered paralleling several BatteryProtects, both on the load and on the signaling circuits, but I'm currently leaning towards a 600A contactor with 4000A surge rating, despite the appearance that the signal from the BMS will likely need to drive a relay to provide the necessary current to the contactor.

Please advise.

Thanks!

Peter

BMSBattery Protect
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8 Answers
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

Hi @pmolettiere

on big loads, your best option might be to 'control the controllers' or disable power to the relay coils of these loads.

This can be tricky, when other loads are connected to the same circuit they would need to be fed from another source.

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pmolettiere avatar image
pmolettiere answered ·

Hey Daniël,

Thanks for the answer. A bit more information about the loads in question:

* Several large electric motors (windlass, winches)

* A DC panel, with roughly sixteen breakers, driving everything from 12v lighting, to various pumps, radar, a watermaker, and electronics

AFAIK, there are no "controllers" for these at all, in the way that the Multiplus has a control input to shut it down. I just need to break the DC (positive) supply lines for them.

I expect that I should be able to install some sort of relay (my understanding is that the BatteryProtect is such a relay) or contactor / solenoid to switch these loads. From recent research, most contactors rated at 600A seem to draw a fair amount of current (up to 1A) to hold the circuit open, which would be undesirable.

I don't understand your comment about "when other loads are connected to the same circuit they would need to be fed from another source." Are you saying the loads need to be fed from a different source, or that the relays need to be powered from a different source?

Can you comment on using multiple BatteryProtects in parallel to achieve higher amperage ratings? Can the VE.bus BMS signal multiple BatteryProtects from it's single load disconnect output? This output seems only to be rated at 10mA, which would argue no, unless the BatteryProtects only require ≤ 3.34mA.

I'm just trying to understand Victron's recommendation for disconnecting high current DC loads from large banks of parallel connected batteries.

Thanks,

Peter

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Charlie Johnson avatar image
Charlie Johnson answered ·

A quick review of the VE.Bus BMS Data Sheet shows this:

It appears to me that you can wok with the Pre-alarm signal and the delay time between the pre-alarm and load disconnect to gracefully remove power from your heavy loads.


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pmolettiere avatar image pmolettiere commented ·

Hey Charlie,

Yes - this is exactly the output from the VE.bus BMS that I would need to use to drive the switch to disconnect the DC load.

I'm not sure the Pre-alarm helps much, as all I can do with the loads I have is disconnect them.

The main question is what component to use to do the switching.

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bathnm avatar image bathnm commented ·

Unfortunately I do not believe that you can get hold of the VE.Bus BMS which has the pre-alarm. The manuals and data sheets have been updated but the new product isn't available. Been asking as I am about to pull the trigger on a new system.

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aaronsb avatar image
aaronsb answered ·

How many devices on the load side of your battery bank have capactitive circuitry? It may be worthwhile to consider a precharge circuit in this situation as well.


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pmolettiere avatar image pmolettiere commented ·

I don't think any of the ones I'm trying to switch do…

* three large DC motors (windless, two winches)

* A DC subpanel which drives lighting, small pumps, refrigeration compressors, a watermaker (more pumps, some electronics), and electronics.

There is a Multiplus, but this has it's own disconnect circuitry from the VE.bus BMS, so it wouldn't be switched.

My current thoughts are to use this to switch the DC loads:

https://www.gigavac.com/sites/default/files/catalog/spec_sheet/mx110.pdf

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jwfrary avatar image
jwfrary answered ·

How about using a latching relay https://www.bluesea.com/products/7700/ML-RBS_Remote_Battery_Switch_with_Manual_Control_-_12V_DC_500A

should do the job, in the rare circumstances it’s triggered. Just have a button to ‘reset it to on’

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pmolettiere avatar image pmolettiere commented ·

That's a cool option I hadn't seen, thanks! A couple concerns though:

* The switching component should be normally open, and low power when closed. The Blue Sea device looks to be low current when closed, but it's unclear that it would fail open.

* It's max continuous current is 500A, and I'm thinking I need closer to 700A.

What do you think of this contactor?

https://www.gigavac.com/sites/default/files/catalog/spec_sheet/mx110.pdf

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jwfrary avatar image jwfrary pmolettiere commented ·

Blue sea one is momentarily that’s true but there are timer relays you could use to achieve that function and at least it’s designed for the marine environment. I know a commercial boat they are fitted on which is now been in service 9 years no problems

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jwfrary avatar image jwfrary pmolettiere commented ·

No experience with the product you linked to but seems nice quality and seals with a deutch plug...nice

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kai avatar image kai ♦ pmolettiere commented ·

I'm using the GX12SA from the same company. Less beefy than the MX110 (I didn't need 1kA).

Build quality is pretty solid for the few that I bought.


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bathnm avatar image
bathnm answered ·

Do you need to disconnect the big loads directly. Do the big loads (winches) have some control circuitry that you can disconnect. Therefore once the control circuit isn't working the large load will not draw.

I'm about to pull the trigger on a Victron based Lithium system and as an example, I will wire the windlass direct to the main DC buss. The low current solenoid control circuit for the windlass will be disabled by the load disconnect. With the solenoid control circuit dead the windlass will not run and therefore although supplied direct will not draw anything.


Have a look at those high power draws and see if you an isolate them through other routes.

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sv-drumbeat avatar image
sv-drumbeat answered ·

@pmolettiere - What did you end up doing to solve this issue if you don't mind sharing?

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pmolettiere avatar image pmolettiere commented ·

Hey! I ended up using a Gigavac MX series contactor, driven directly from the load disconnect on the ve.bus BMS. Works great! They have contactors rated up to 1000A continuous.

https://www.gigavac.com/catalog/power-products/mx-series

Very high quality, great connectors.

The suggested option of controlling the controllers wouldn't have worked without a lot of effort in my case.

I didn't want a latching relay because I wanted to be sure the load disconnect would fail open.


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pmolettiere avatar image pmolettiere commented ·

I ended up using the Victron signaling to the Mulitiplus, and then running all other DC kids through a large contactor from Gigavac: https://www.gigavac.com/catalog/power-products/gx-series


I’ve been cruising for a year in Mexico, and living aboard for a year befor that with this system in place and it’s been totally bomber so far.


The only wrinkle for me was adding a relay to the charge disconnect on the vms.BMS to drive the contactor, the external voltage regulator, and the charge disconnect on the solar. This is all on a small relay driven bus near the BMS.


Gigavac has contractors up to 1000A. I chose a 500A contactor, realizing that My high current draws don’t come on together. The part is very high quality.

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stgermain45 avatar image stgermain45 pmolettiere commented ·
@pmolettiere would you mind elaborating on your setup with the relays (diagram?) and also post the specific models used, both Gigavac contactor and relays?


I'm in a very similar situation on my boat (in fact, also cruising Mexico currently anchored in the northern Sea of Cortez). We're a full Victron powered boat. 1000Ah Victron LiFePO4 smart batteries (5x 200Ah 12V), Victron VE-Bus BMS, 2x Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120-50 in parallel, Victron solar controllers, Victron monitoring with BMV-712 and VenusOS on Rpi, etc, etc. Loads and charge busses are separated, and I'm currently using several smart battery protects. We've had full 12V DC system shutdowns on rare occasion when cranking up a loaded windlass and also when cranking up our mainsail with electric powered winches. We've similarly had these shutdowns when transmitting on SSB via Pactor modem for weather/email, particularly on higher frequencies. In these cases with no BMS alarms it points to our load battery protect being overloaded (triggering E1: short circuit alarm) in the case of the winch/windlass and RF interfered-with using the SSB. I'd like to swap the 220A battery protect out for a suitable contactor that can be triggered off in an alarm condition by the BMS. My hope is it will solve both issues in one. Like you, switching the controllers would warrant a lot of effort in our case, same with isolating windlass and electric winches from the other loads. I'm thinking one large contactor for all loads. I was previously looking at the Blue Sea line of magnetically latching solenoids (like model 7718), but now I'm interested in the Gigavac contactors recommended here.


Any help is greatly appreciated!

Chris


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pmolettiere avatar image pmolettiere stgermain45 commented ·

I used the MX15, which handles up to 500A. The series goes up to 1000A with the MX110.


Model list here: https://www.sensata.com/products/gigavac-power-contactors-fuses/mx-contactors-48v/mx-normally-open-contactors


I’ve never had any sort of shutdown. Happy to chat sometime if that’s easier.


When I looked at the BatteryPeotects I thought they were all too small for my application.

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stgermain45 avatar image stgermain45 pmolettiere commented ·

@pmolettiere Thanks for the additional info. From your earlier description of your system, it sounds like you only needed an additional relay for your charge sources. Is that correct? I was hoping I could use the VE-Bus load disconnect directly to the contactor to switch off during a battery cell protection event, but from the spec sheet it looks like the supply voltage of the BMS load disconnect is only 1V and the Gigavac MX15 aux contact switching current requires 0.1mA @5V minimum, if I'm reading this correctly. Will I need an additional relay? If so, which did you use? In my system, I will use the new contactor for loads only and will continue to use the battery protects on my charge sources (solar and alternator regulator), as they work fine. Multiplus units get their signalling directly. I'll likely go with the same MX15 contactor, no need to reinvent the wheel! Really appreciate your input!

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pmolettiere avatar image pmolettiere stgermain45 commented ·

You're looking at specs for the auxiliary contacts, which I don't use. I only use coil + and coil -, pins 1 and 2 in the Deutsch connector. Coil current for the MX15 is 230 mA at 12v. Coil - (pin 1) is wired to the negative bus. Coil + (pin 2) is wired directly to the load connect on the ve.bus BMS.


The full Giga part number is MX15BEB for the 12v normally open contactor rated to 500A.


(Edited to change "load disconnect on the BMS" to "load connect on the BMS" in order to reflect the fact that the BMS goes high to close the contactor and enable discharge.)

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stgermain45 avatar image
stgermain45 answered ·

Thanks for this! I have a quote request in with Sensata. Very pleased this should be an easy swap of the battery protect and not some major rewiring project. Thanks again!

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