question

mondeoman avatar image
mondeoman asked

Self Consumption without ESS

Hi,

Electrical engineer here, heavily DIY oriented, trying to understand "the Victron ecosystem".

I want to build a Backup and Self Consumption power supply system for some of my house loads.

ESS "Optimize for Self Consumption" would be almost perfect for me, but unfortunately ESS is completely out of the question due to grid regulations.

Grid outages happen about 5 times per year.

I am considering a Multiplus II 48V / 3 kVA inverter, 10 kWh Winston LiFePo4 (16 x 200 Ah cells) and a two-signal BMS. I could afford to go for 4 x Pylontech US2000 boxes if it's worth the extra cost...

I also have room for 10 - 12 PV panels (250 - 300 Wp each) and a SmartSolar charger.

Requirements:

1. When the grid becomes available (on initial power-up of the system or right after a grid outage ends), charge the batteries from the grid up to a nice, crisp, 100%. After this initial grid-supported charging, DO NOT USE GRID TO CHARGE batteries, until after the next grid outage.

2. After this initial charging, only PV power should charge the batteries.

3. During normal operation, when battery SOC drops below 50%, stop discharging and switch loads to grid.

4. When PV power becomes available and battery SOC rises above, say, 60%, switch loads from grid to battery and PV.

5. If grid is down, support the loads from the battery down to, say, 5% SOC.


Can these requirements be met with Victron Equipment? What additional hardware do I need? Is a CCGX really needed? Are there any Assistants that can make the inverter behave like above?


Additional requirement (6). About half of the grid outages happen during the winter. Heavy snow + aerial power lines do not go well together. It also takes the most time to be fixed, due to bad weather. So...I also need to connect a backup generator into this picture. Would go nice with requirement 1, I should be able to fully charge the batteries during the day and run on battery power during the night. :)


Many thanks in advance!


Multiplus-IIAssistants
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

4 Answers
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image
Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered ·

Hi @MondeoMan

this part is possible to realize with just a Multi (or Quattro), but the problem is SOC measurement as the MPPT charges the battery and the Multi needs to know this. thus a GX device is needed. (when using a battery type where SOC corresponds with voltage, you can do without).

  • When grid is unavailable, switch loads to battery.
  • When SOC drops below 50% AND grid is available, switch loads to grid but do not charge battery from grid.
  • When SOC rises above 60% (due to PV), switch loads to battery.

With the above requirements, you basically just use the inverter part of the Multi.

connecting to grid is best done with the 'generator start-stop' assistant, you can set multiple options for connecting the grid (SOC, low voltage, high power use):

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/assistants:ignore_ac_input_using_the_generator_assistant

for disabling charging, you can use a combination of assistants, I've made an example here:

you'll have to connect the temp-sense input +/- with the NO side of the K2 relay for this to work,


Please note that getting the SOC calculations right is the key to getting this system to work as expected, this may need some tweaking. the settings below would be a good starting point:

A full charge once a week or something might be needed to re-synchronize the SOC.


screenshot-2019-11-27-110158.png (42.8 KiB)
screenshot-2019-11-27-110512.png (40.0 KiB)
screenshot-2019-11-27-110854.png (35.3 KiB)
4 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

mondeoman avatar image mondeoman commented ·

Thank you!

Just to clarify: If I get a BMV and a CCGX, the Assistants (running inside the inverter), would work based on the SOC reported by the BMV to CCGX?

0 Likes 0 ·
Show more comments
anthony-d avatar image anthony-d commented ·

Hello Daniel,

Can I ask you to explain the logic in the lower example of 'for disabling charging, you can use a combination of assistants, I've made an example here:'?

I do not understand why the 'programmable relay (size30) says 'when SOC lower than 55%'; my intuition says that this should be 'when SOChigher than 55%'.

Also, could you briefly explain how the temp sense input gets its 0-5v signal, if its input is from the k2 signal, which is either on or off.

Many thanks.

0 Likes 0 ·
Show more comments
Murray van Graan avatar image
Murray van Graan answered ·

Why do you say ESS is out of the question? I’m asking because it is possible to prevent feeding back to the grid. As an alternative you could use an assistant to control the ac input in an island system, but it’s going to be hard to get it to recharge fully after grid outages only. For this you’ll need external logic controlling the system.

Consider a Quattro unit when using a generator, as it has 2 AC inputs and each one can be configured separately. If using a Quattro, you’ll need an external anti islanding relay.

2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

mondeoman avatar image
mondeoman answered ·

ESS is out of the question because it is not legal to connect such an inverter to the grid, even with "limited" feedback.

I'm not worried about adding external logic, I design and build all sorts of electrical automation cabinets for my daily job. Mostly relay-based, timers, counters, etc. I do admit I'm a bit old school and I'm not very comfortable with things that I can't touch and can't directly measure and poke...I mean software / firmware / bluetooth / bigmouth / etc. I still design my projects drawing ladder logic with a pen & paper...

2 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

sean avatar image sean commented ·

What Country ? (I'm guessing UK)

0 Likes 0 ·
mondeoman avatar image mondeoman sean commented ·

Sorry but I just don't want to go through the hassle of obtaining the legally required permits to connect it on-grid with ESS. I'm just sick and tired of dealing with the corrupted and arrogant energy authorities.


So, can anyone please advise how could I obtain the following behavior with Victron Equipment?

  • When grid is unavailable, switch loads to battery.
  • When SOC drops below 50% AND grid is available, switch loads to grid but do not charge battery from grid.
  • When SOC rises above 60% (due to PV), switch loads to battery.


Thank you all!

0 Likes 0 ·
shaneyake avatar image
shaneyake answered ·

@MondeoMan As you said you like to DIY, I think this solution might work well for you.


I would build a system with:
Victron Multiplus 48/5000, the extra 2000VA is worth the cost, you will probably want to add more stuff later.
Cerbo GX running NodeRed.
MPPT's
A battery with CAN BMS, this could mean Winston LiFePo4 with Orion Jr. 2 BMS or Plyontech.
CAN bms is very helpfully in knowing what is going on with the pack, We don't do systems without CAN bms anymore. Controlling charge voltage for balancing is a deal breaker for us.

You can then connect everything up as victron recommends the only difference would be running the victron Large image on the GX for NodeRed and an extra cable going from GX relay to Aux input 1 on the multiplus.

You then setup the inverter as normal but don't enable ESS and set the assistant to ignore AC on AUX1.

You can then make a really easy NodeRed flow that charges the battery up to 100%.
Then maintains some SOC, if it drops blow that SOC then it reconnects to grid and runs in passthrough mode till it reaches some SOC and then it disconnects from GRID and runs like that till you hit your MIN SOC again. If you had an outage that made the SOC go below your limit then when grid returns you charge battery to limit and stay in passthrough till SOC is at the off grid SOC and repeats.

We are running this exact setup at one of our sites as they aren't allowed to feedback and have some dirty power too so we want to be disconnected most of the time.



2 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Bret Watson avatar image Bret Watson commented ·

Are you able to share a diagram? Thanks

0 Likes 0 ·
shaneyake avatar image shaneyake Bret Watson commented ·

This is simplified Diagramwiring-design.png

0 Likes 0 ·
wiring-design.png (40.7 KiB)