question

maidstein avatar image
maidstein asked

Orion XS starts new cycles when engine shutdown has been detected

The Orion XS always starts new cycles once an engine shutdown on input has been detected, even though the battery voltage on output has not dropped below the re-bulk voltage.

I have connected an alternator and a solar charge controller (SmartSolar MPPT 100|50) and a battery to the input of the Orion XS. If the voltage at the input of the Orion XS drops below the shutdown voltage of the engine shutdown detection for at least 60 seconds, the Orion XS stops charging at that point at the latest. That is correct.

If there is enough voltage at the input of the Orion XS, a new charging cycle is started, even though the battery voltage at the output of the Orion XS has not dropped below the float voltage, the storage voltage or the re-bulk voltage (offset). This means that charging is always carried out up to the absorption voltage once an engine shutdown has been detected.

This is a fatal error and must be urgently corrected in the next firmware update!

Thank you!

orion xs
2 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

pwfarnell avatar image pwfarnell commented ·

Everything like a solar controller, alternator controller, inverter etc. starts a new cycle when turned on unless you have managed battery control through a Cerbo. The thing is to make sure that the settings are input correctly so that it rapidly goes from absorption to float. Setting something like a fixed 3 hr absorption period when you are in a van or RV that might be turned off many times a day would be a poor choice of settings. Victron adaptive absorption will reduce the absorption time if the battery voltage is high. Tail current setting will end absorption very quickly with full batteries but can be fooled by loads unless you have the device linked to a shunt/ battery monitor.

4 Likes 4 ·
kevgermany avatar image kevgermany ♦♦ commented ·

It's normal behaviour. Why do you see it as a fatal error?

3 Likes 3 ·
5 Answers
Justin Cook avatar image
Justin Cook answered ·

As stated previously, and just as an MPPT, or AC-to-DC charger, a new charge cycle is always started when the unit turns back on. That's the way it is.

If the charger (any of the above chargers) is set properly, there is absolutely zero harm to this - it's a non-issue. If your batteries are full, the charger will quickly progress from Bulk to Absorb, and then to Float.

In your case, you have a very unusual choice in the way you've connected your electrical components, and it's causing unusual behavior in the components - this is to be expected. So long as everything is programmed correctly, however, there is nothing to worry about. If you are still concerned, the obvious solution is to redesign your system as would be normal, with alternator to start battery, start battery to Orion XS, Orion XS and solar controller to leisure battery. This will stop the behavior you're seeing.

3 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

maidstein avatar image maidstein commented ·

Please excuse the question. Are you an official Victron employee and authorized to speak for Victron?

0 Likes 0 ·
Justin Cook avatar image Justin Cook ♦♦ maidstein commented ·

Well, this is not a Victron Support channel, this is the Victron Community, which is staffed by volunteer experts like me and a number of others -several of whom have also already given you the correct answer- and largely populated by system owners and enthusiasts such as yourself.

If you believe your unit is malfunctioning, the proper support channel is through your authorized Victron distributor, whose direct contact information -if you don't know offhand who it is- can be found by entering your unit serial number into the Victron Support page here: https://www.victronenergy.com/support

0 Likes 0 ·
maidstein avatar image maidstein Justin Cook ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Justin Cook!

Thank you for your answer!

Thank you to everyone who took the time to answer me!

You seem to be right that the Orion XS (and other Victron chargers) always start with a full charge cycle (bulk, absorption, float) as soon as the voltage on the input side has dropped and is back again. With the Orion XS, the voltage on the input side never drops completely, but falls to a certain level (ideally to resting voltage of the starter battery) and is therefore below the shutdown voltage of the engine shutdown detection, which will also trigger a full charging cycle.

Let's imagine that I only had an alternator (and starter battery) on the input side of the Orion XS and a vehicle with automatic start-stop. Every time the alternator has been off, a new full charge cycle (bulk, absorption, float etc.) is started. Without a setting option to adjust the charging mode based on the voltage on the output side (leisure battery), the Orion XS would possibly never leave the absorption phase, as the absorption phase lasts at least 30 minutes. (See the explanation in the Orion XS settings menu for "adaptive absorption".) This would inevitably lead to permanent overcharging of the battery, which would be detrimental to the cycle stability of LiFePO4 batteries in particular.

If this setting option existed, it would not matter that the motor shutdown detection does not always seem to work properly. (See my repeatedly described problem that the motor shutdown was triggered even though the shutdown voltage was neither exceeded nor exceeded for 60 seconds.)

I will now contact the official Victron support with this finding, as I do not believe that Victron will be satisfied with the way the Orion XS has worked so far.

Thank you all!

0 Likes 0 ·
maidstein avatar image
maidstein answered ·

Hi @kevgermany and @pwfarnell! Thank you for your replies!

I'm sorry, I don't think this is normal behavior. So I stick to my verdict of "fatal error".

But before I go too deep into this, I have to say that I was hasty with my error diagnosis and that I need to correct it.

The strange charging behavior (that the Orion XS seems to spontaneously start new charging cycles) also seems to be independent of the engine shutdown detection. Yesterday I had a voltage on the input side of the Orion XS above the threshold of the engine shutdown detection voltage for a whole day. Despite this, for some unknown reason, it was charged about 6 times yesterday with the absorption voltage (14.4 V). Because there was currently no load connected to the battery (LiFePO4) at the output of the Orion XS, the voltage never dropped below 14.25 V. The float voltage is set to 13.35 V and the storage voltage is set to 13.25 V.

Why does the Orion XS keep spontaneously charging with absorption voltage (14.4 V)?

The Orion XS may not even charge until it reaches the float voltage and later the storage voltage. Do you agree?

1 comment
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

pwfarnell avatar image pwfarnell commented ·

Without knowing details, just throwing out some ideas which I would not expect to see

Transient loads on the starter battery

Alternator delivery voltage transients

Loose or bad wiring connection, isolator, fuse etc. between the starter battery and the Orion.

A faulty Orion

Recheck all wiring and components in the supply.

Try the Orion activation by a different method such as wiring to the remote terminal rather than starter voltage detection to see how it works.

2 Likes 2 ·
maidstein avatar image
maidstein answered ·

Thank you for your ideas for narrowing down the problem!

First, let me show you my circuit.

schaltkreis.png

I monitor the starter battery using a Smart Battery Sense. The historical data from the Smart Battery Sense shows absolutely no drop in voltage for more than 60 seconds, which is why the Orion XS's engine shutdown detection probably did not trigger.

But even if the voltage had been below the engine shutdown detection voltage and later above the start voltage or delayed start voltage, the Orion XS would not have been allowed to charge again because the voltage on the additional battery was still well above the storage voltage and float voltage.

I think it's a good idea to deactivate the engine shutdown detection as a test to see whether the Orion XS still starts unexpected and unwanted new charging cycles from time to time.

Incidentally, the unexpected and unwanted new charging cycles are also not displayed in the history tab of the Victron app (Victron Connect). This obviously only happens in the background. In addition, the time data in the history tab for each of the 5 charging phases is not at all plausible. It all looks like very unfinished software to me.

It would be nice if an official representative from Victron Energy could comment on this.

Thank you very much!


schaltkreis.png (22.3 KiB)
1 comment
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

pwfarnell avatar image pwfarnell commented ·

@maidstein The only comment I have is the solar connection to the start battery, I know it keeps the start battery full even with loads on the battery, but it is usual for the solar to be on the leisure battery and if needed add a trickle charge to keep the starter battery full. The solar may be causing voltage fluctuations which are misinterpreted as engine stops and starts, again just trying to suggest ideas as to why you are having an unusual problem and what you are doing different. I have no personal experience of the Smart Battery Sense and how good its logic is.

2 Likes 2 ·
maidstein avatar image
maidstein answered ·

The fact that the solar charger causes small voltage fluctuations on input of Orion XS can hardly be the problem, because the engine shutdown detection only reacts when the voltage is getting below the shutdown voltage for at least 60 seconds. There have definitely not been voltage drops that long and that deep. The Smart Battery Sense produces very accurate historical datas like the BMVs and SmartShunts do.

But even if there were. The Orion XS should not charge even after falling below the shutdown voltage and then exceeding the (delayed) start voltage, as long as the voltage of the leisure battery is above the float voltage (and storage voltage).

The fact that the solar charger is connected to the starter battery has the advantage that the leisure battery can be charged via solar charger and alternator with the help of Orion XS.

2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

maidstein avatar image
maidstein answered ·

In the historical data of the BMV-712 Smart, which is connected to the leisure battery, I was able to detect an unwanted new charging cycle by the Orion XS again today. At this time, according to the historical data of the Smart Battery Sense, which is connected to the starter battery, there was a short, noticeable voltage drop of approx. 0.15 V for exactly one data point and was still well above the shutdown voltage. The resolution of the data at the time of my inspection was 30 seconds. Before and after this noticeable data point, the voltage on the starter battery was at the level of the float voltage. The engine shutdown detection should not have been triggered because neither the voltage was low enough nor the time period of 60 seconds was exceeded. But a new cycle has obviously started again because it was charging up to the absorption voltage again.

Even if I keep repeating myself, a new charging cycle should not have started even if the engine shutdown detection had been triggered because the voltage of the leisure battery was well above the bulk voltage. In cars with an automatic start-stop system or with a solar charge controller on the starter battery, this would inevitably lead to the leisure battery constantly being charged at absorption level, regardless of whether "adaptive absorption" has been selected and a short "maximum absorption time" has been set in the Orion XS settings menu.

And if it were the case that the Orion XS repeatedly starts new charging cycles when the engine shutdown detection is triggered, then there should be a setting where you can actively prevent this behavior. If this option did not exist, the Orion XS would be useless.

2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.