question

energy avatar image
energy asked

Error 17 - Look like Harmonics problem

I have a problem with an installation that manifests as Error 17 in a house when the lift goes from ground to 2nd floor. It is a 6 x Multi-2 system, 3-Ph, 2 inverters per phase.

Currently Comms cables are:

  • At least 10cm from any electrical cables. Where it crosses (1 incidence), it crosses at 90 deg.
  • Comms cables are CAT6A, as short as possible.
  • Works with load from zero and varying between 2 and 4 kW (normal house load).
  • As soon as lift starts (3Ph lift) the inverters switch off with error 17, followed by the normal recovery.

All S/W at latest version 2623-510 on inverters and Cerbo at v3.32.

Works correct with 3 x Multi-2’s but problem with 6 x Multi-2’s.

SO, I suspect the VSD of the lift is causing harmonic load problems. It draws 10A per phase (400/230v).

I have an oscilloscope that can do FFT, so I want to measure harmonics at some stage. (Need to find correct probes, which I have not used in years.)

Please comment if you believe I am on the right track.

error
5 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ commented ·

Maybe some more specifics like what size mp2s you have? What size battery bank(in nominal amps not kwh)? What size is the lift vsd and elevator kit.

The problem sounds like only a problem in parrallel so it could also be the parrallel setup and current share there.

0 Likes 0 ·
energy avatar image energy Alexandra ♦ commented ·

Two Smartsolar MPPT 250/100s connected to 28 x 335Wp panels.
Bank of 8 x 100 Ah = 800 Ah, 51,2v batteries.
I have done more measurements. All probes and meters are Fluke. Scope is Rigol.

After several tests, I have concluded that the six-inverter system works with varying loads ranging from zero to all loads in the house including heat pumps etc. (About 6 – 8 kW total on the three phases.)

However, as soon as the lift (elevator) starts (about 2 kW), the system fails with error 17, irrespective of the load from the rest of the house. The problem, therefore, shows no correlation to the total system load.

The lift has a variable frequency drive (VFD). I have measured the current and it shows very bad current spikes. I looked at the Fourier transform of the current. It shows large harmonics but, looking at the current, I suspect that there are extremely large harmonics at very high frequencies, so my FFT was of little help.

The interference in the Victron system seems to originate with the lift current which is powered by the Victron system.

There is no information in Victron's documents except some trivial, how to suck eggs suggestions. One doc talks about ferrite clips. That is not going to cut it, might as well put chewing gum on the wires.

0 Likes 0 ·
Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ energy commented ·

If your wiring is not symmetrical (possible oversize) and each inverter not doing its job as the rest, then there can be a problem.

Did you try measure power factor?

Long runs of ac cabling coupled with a long run to the vsd also adds to the problem. You didn't answer if you had filters on the vsd BTW.

0 Likes 0 ·
energy avatar image energy energy commented ·
I have imported a Pi EMC/RFI filter. Looking for a 3-Phase choke now, to use both. My problem is this is a small addition of 3 x Multi's to an existing system. I must now spend days resolving it and buy filters to try. The project is now a serious financial loss.

So, it easy to say do this, do that. I am considering taking the inverters out and give the customer her deposit back. I believe this is Victron's problem.

0 Likes 0 ·
nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ energy commented ·
This topic is not something the community can help with, so I am going to close it off as the internet is not suited to troubleshooting this, the attention you desire is not available here as per our guidelines.

I would suggest you:

Log a ticket with the support url in the guideline page, or, do the same with your supplier.

Failing that, the contact information for your regional manager is available on the “contact us” section of Victron’s website.


1 Like 1 ·
4 Answers
Duivert NL avatar image
Duivert NL answered ·

have you taken a look at this? :

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:ve.bus_error_codes

2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

energy avatar image
energy answered ·

Hello Duivert. That you for the feedback.

I am miles and miles beyond the level of investigation that you are suggesting. That document was my thought in the 1st 2 minutes. We are referring to a much more complicated problem here. I am dusting off my Fourier Transform knowledge, which is unfortunately way above the average level of this group. I don't want to be dismissive, but this is a complex problem, that require expert knowledge. I don't want trivial suggestions to cloud this topic.

2 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

nickdb avatar image nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

Then you need to follow the official support procedure.

As an internet community you're going to get lots of comment, since error 17 is typically a comms issue, sometimes a fault, as you'd be aware.

What you're asking is way above the site paygrade.

Maybe you get lucky and staff pick it up, but generally, those that could give an expert answer like this are unlikely to be lurking here.

It can pay to go back to basics and check all the inverters, that everything is evenly distributed.

Since no one knows the history or what has/hasn't been done you can expect to get advice that you have already tried.

The internet is not suited for dealing with complex problems, and too many involve detail that has not been shared nor can be accessed remotely.

Good luck.


0 Likes 0 ·
Duivert NL avatar image Duivert NL nickdb ♦♦ commented ·

Since no one knows the history or what has/hasn't been done you can expect to get advice that you have already tried.


yup, you have to start somewhere :)

parallel systems are complex so they can also make complex problems


0 Likes 0 ·
energy avatar image
energy answered ·

Victron's support procedure, whatever that is, and in fact all of their support, is a complete waste of time. At this stage I would love to know what the maximum THD on the load current is, before the inverters give up.

BUT, I won't even ask, sure Victron does not even know.

2 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Duivert NL avatar image Duivert NL commented ·
I disagree, they are very supportive, but its a real technical isseu/question, maybe @mvader (Victron Energy) can help you with this or connect you with the right technician
0 Likes 0 ·
Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ Duivert NL commented ·

Weird about the vsd harmonics. I know of plenty systems whose only job is pumps with vsds and the don't have the issue.

We can make assumptions like the system is correctly sized here including battery cables and banks. Do you have all the needed filters installed on the vsd?

Have you contacted your dealer to escalate the issue through the official channels as suggested in the manual.


0 Likes 0 ·
energy avatar image
energy answered ·

How do I draw @mvader (Victron Energy) attention to this.

2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

Related Resources

Additional resources still need to be added for this topic