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kudos50 avatar image
kudos50 asked

Multis three phase rotation issue

I have the strangest issue;

In The Netherlands we have a "smart meter" and in my case I even have 3 individual 25A main breakers, one for each fase, that I can turn off. If I do that, the smart meter indicates which fase number is failing.

Other than that I have the basic setup for HomeAssistant for the smart meter so I can read and store every detail about the individual phases.

Still, with all these certainties, the multi's throw a phase rotation error when I start the system. If I swap phase 2 and 3 the ESS boots and all is working normally. However, if I change the config from sum of all phases to individual phase, the ESS obviously goes horrible wrong as it's feeding to grid on phase 2 to reach a set point measured on phase 3.

Basically, all phase related information from HomeAssistant and the Victron cloud is correct. All readings add up and work fine. Except for that fact that multis 2 and 3 feed from/to the wrong phase.

Someone please point me in the right direction here :-) I have ordered a phase sequence meter to re-confirm but all readings and tests and wiring add up AND I have various 3 fase appliances like 2 car chargers and a heat pump that work fine

The multis are configured for ESS only. Nothing connected or configured on the outputs. Solar is grid parallel (Enphase). The 3 multis share 0, each have their phase and ground is only connected to ac-in and chassis.

Thanks

ESS
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4 Answers
kudos50 avatar image
kudos50 answered ·

Conclusion:

  1. All wiring from the dutch DSMR including the Liander owned L1,L2,L3 breakers and everything after it simply have a left rotation
  2. As a result, all data in HomeAssistant about load and/or availability cannot be the same as all Victron data as both the meter (Shelly Pro in my case) and the 3 multi's have to be rotated right L3, L2, L1. Or in other words, L1 and L3 swapped
  3. I simply never had a need as all my 3 phase devices don't care about rotation
    1. 2 x 11kW EV chargers don't care
    2. 11kW heatpump assisting element in case outside air temp too low
    3. 15kW (~5kW) heatpump inverter unit. Not on/off but inverter so orientation doesn't matter either

If you always regulate on total of all phases you will never need to change anything as it does not matter. But if winter comes and charging can be disabled due to your consumption pattern, single phase regulation can be very interesting as it will prevent you from exceeding the grid breaker capacity whilst charging your car. Peak shaving for grid parallel ESS... or something like that.

Thanks @JaniEronen for you reply!

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kudos50 avatar image kudos50 commented ·
Can't we have a checkbox for left rotation setups ? I mean, all done now, but that would have made it so much easier and it will ensure all telemetry data is identical between platforms like Victron and HomeAssistant.
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Alexandra avatar image
Alexandra answered ·

@kudos50

If your physical wiring is correct, then the issue is in software config.

You have told in programming the multi that it is on a different phase.

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kudos50 avatar image kudos50 commented ·

Not sure I'm following. The multis check and demand the correct physical phase config. If I swap phase 2 and 3 multis in the config I would again need to swap wiring resulting in the same mapping issue. Just different serial numbers with the same problem I think ?


In the config I double checked by flashing the leds. Multis are now configured left, middle, right with physical cabling 1, 2, 3. To prevent the rotation error I need to swap wiring 2,3 to 3,2. But all physical + measurements + every other test proves wiring is indeed 1,2,3 and should be left, middle, right.

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kudos50 avatar image kudos50 commented ·
1-3-2 is not the only config that is accepted. 3-2-1 is accepted as well. So technically I still have a working system. The only way to ensure I can use per-phase ESS is by physically swapping the 1 and 3 CTs as well.


This is still not making any sense to me as the smart meter (DSMR) and the Victron data for phase 1 and 3 will than be crossed.

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janieronen avatar image janieronen kudos50 commented ·
Not all grid smart meters show rotation or throw any error if rotation direction is not correct. One installation I had that kind of case that fuses share show correct L1-L3 phase down when removed but that doesn't mean the rotation is correct. When measured with assembly tester noticed that Grid side rotation were wrong. Corrected that after smart meter and Victron ESS were happy. So you need phase rotation tester to be sure.
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kudos50 avatar image kudos50 janieronen commented ·

I ordered one this morning. Hopefully it confirms the finding from the Multi's and I simply have 3-phase left rotation without knowing it :-)


Swapping CTs is not a big deal but it's still a bit odd not being able to match the readouts from the DMSR (in HomeAssistant) and the Victron ESS.

I guess you can't win them all. Maybe a left-rotation checkbox in the config ?

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Alexandra avatar image
Alexandra answered ·

@kudos50 @JaniEronen

L1 must always be the master phase in a three phase setup.

It would have been as simple as telling the inverter in programming receiving L3 (regardless of physical position in your setup) that is was on L3 and L1 is on L1.

The problem was the one receiving L1 received L3...

There is also an option in ve bus configurator to tell the system to accept three phase rotation.

So the Victron solution exists already using ve bus configurator.

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kudos50 avatar image kudos50 commented ·
Like your first response I am still having difficulties understanding your logic. There is no way to just change the bus config and solve the issue. If I had used bus configurator to swap L2 and L3 (or L1 and L3) I would still have had the incorrect readings as the CTs still provide information "for the left phase orientation". And as such, phase 2 regulation attempts by the Cerbo to the set point will feed-in on phase 3 and vice versa.


So unless I'm horribly wrong:

(change the order of the multis in the bus configurator OR change the wiring) AND change the CTs.

Or one of the options in the bus configurator allows me to ignore the rotation without this becoming a problem. I have seen some settings in the GUI to configure L2&3 floating but that is unrelated I think ? Which of the options are you talking about ?

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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ kudos50 commented ·

Your wiring and set up have to match both physically and in config referring to the inverters and physical wiring. Cts and meters are easy fixes they dont care what way the phases go as they dont need to build a sine wave to match and synchronise where as the inverters do.

In victron connect you can set up the three phase using flashing lights on the unit, assign it to the phase it is on. I am speaking from experience here, often when there are grid problems it is restored incorrectly, all we do is swap which unit is ( in programming nt physically) is assigned where. No need to mess with wiring.

screenshot-20230726-073226.jpg


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kudos50 avatar image
kudos50 answered ·

Finally found some time to simply call the infra folks in the Netherlands (Liander in my case). Guess what, the whole province of Flevoland has ccw orientation. Kind of funny considering Almere = in Flevoland = hometown of Victron with ccw orientation! As long as you do not actually use a "Slimme Meter" for readouts and need to combine that with readings from a Victron grid meter and the Multi's themselves, that's not an issue.

So I will leave it at this. I can still opt to swap fase 2 and 3 at the main switch to make it cw as that will at least result in the multi's + the victron grid meter to be wired correctly. But I need to stop using the "Slimme Meter" readouts as that phase readout will then mismatch with all other metering.

Ah well.... at least good to know I'm not totally crazy.

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