question

pauldunn avatar image
pauldunn asked

Multiplus ii Install UK

Hello

I am trying to explain to my electrician how I would like the AC side of my Multiplus ii installed but he doesn't have any experience of Victron gear and I am by no means an electrician so I am probably not explaining things well. My electrician has experience of installing inverter systems such as Growatt etc but not (I assume) a truly on/off grid system like the MP can provide.

What I want to do is have the MP supply power on AC OUT 1 to the existing consumer unit. I know I will be limited to 72A or less from the MP but this is totally fine for my house usage and in the event of grid failure I will just be careful what I turn on. If this becomes a problem then I will have some of the loads moved to AC OUT 2 or even just get another MP to run in parallel.

In order to avoid any issues from the MP, or if for someone reason I need more power on a particular day than the MP can provide, I would also like a changeover switch added to switch between powering the existing consumer unit from the inverter or the grid.

After reading up as much as I can this is what I have in my head:

screenshot-2022-12-15-at-115349.png

Basically I would like the electrician to install the new consumer unit and the changeover switch.

Does this make sense and/or is reasonable or am I getting this totally wrong hence why my electrician in not following what I want to achieve very well?

Incase its relevant I have 4x US5000 Pylontech batteries connected to the MP.

I have further questions about ESS configuration with these batteries but I will start a separate thread about that so not to confuse this one.

Thanks in advance for any and all advise on this.


Multiplus-II
screenshot-2022-12-15-at-115349.png (54.0 KiB)
6 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

James avatar image James commented ·

Hi @pauldunn I'm in the process of installing a very similar system to yours MPPT into MP GX and Pylontech batteries. Just wondering how you connected into house in the end, did you use the FuseBox SCO125SWB 125A Changeover Switch? How is it? Do you notice it switch over if your house needs more power than the MP is sending?

0 Likes 0 ·
pauldunn avatar image pauldunn James commented ·

Hi @James

Sorry for late reply I have been on holiday,

I ended up using two Multiplus 2 5kVA in parallel so I have no problems with needing more power. The inverters supply my entire house loads.

The change over switch is manually operated and is only there if there is a problem with the inverters/batteries or for maintenance. I strongly suggest adding one. I have used mine a few times when adding more batteries or even simple things like when I go on holiday I switch the over to using the grid in case something happens with the inverters while away.


0 Likes 0 ·
James avatar image James pauldunn commented ·

Hi, thanks for your reply, hope you had a good holiday. Using 2 smaller multiplus is a neat solution, I hadn't thought of that. Yes when I looked closer a the transfer switch mentioned to you, I realised it wasn't an automatic switch, so didn't go for it. However I find one that is here, that is: https://amzn.eu/d/0dGfBYUK

My Electrician has installed it, and although I've not yet had time to figure out how to get it to communicate with the Multiplus GX, as you said it is really useful to be able to switchover to a direct mains supply, without loosing power to the house, when I need to work on the ESS. I'll let you know how I get on figuring out how to get it to communicate with the MP GX.

0 Likes 0 ·
kevgermany avatar image kevgermany ♦♦ James commented ·
Just wondering why the changeover switch is after, not before the multiplus. In fact it's not needed.
0 Likes 0 ·
delf67 avatar image delf67 kevgermany ♦♦ commented ·
What use would it be before the MP? To achieve what?

Not needed? How would you replace a faulty MP while keep the loads powered without it?

0 Likes 0 ·
Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain delf67 commented ·
I agree, although I actually have a changeover switch BOTH before and after my MP-II. The one before is to allow AC-IN to come from either grid or generator, and the one after is to allow my main house consumer unit to choose its source from either the MP-II AC-Out or grid.

I don't yet have a generator so the first changeover switch is just for future use but I use the second changeover switch fairly regularly, usually when I want to update the MP-II firmware or shut the system down to add a new battery module or something. I can even switch the changeover switch so fast manually that the house doesn't miss a beat. I don't do this with any significant loads running of course.

What this does in practice is move the majority of house loads between the "Critical Loads" graphic on the remote console and the "AC Loads" graphic. In either case ESS will still try to balance inverter power against consumption, but in the event of grid loss, the house loads will only be maintained if the changeover switch is set to MP-II AC Out.

0 Likes 0 ·
4 Answers
johnone avatar image
johnone answered ·

Your diagram makes sense to me - it's very similar to a system I've installed. The difference being, no ET112 meter (ESS works fine without the meter) and a Type S time delay RCD (instead of the 50A MCB) supplying inverter AC in. There will be an issue with discrimination with the RCD's in the existing consumer unit if you use a regular RCD in the new consumer unit - sparky should know all about RCD discrimination. Example of a changeover switch (which seems essential, e.g. for maintenance):
https://www.fusebox.shop/products/125a-changeover-switch-and-busbar


2 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

pauldunn avatar image pauldunn commented ·

Brilliant, thanks for validating the diagram. I will now pass this to the electrician and the comments on this thread. If he has any further questions I will post them back.

I was thinking about using a changeover switch like this:

https://www.tradesparky.com/circuit-protection/switch-and-fusegear/changeover-switches/lewden-cs1004p-4p-changeover-switch

But maybe the one you have suggested is a better solution. Does it switch over without loss of power?

0 Likes 0 ·
johnone avatar image johnone pauldunn commented ·

Re 'switch over without loss of power', with a mechanical switch there will always be a period with no power, the issue is how long. As the Lewden switch has an 'off' position, that probably means way too long a delay for appliances. Whereas, the Fusebox switch, in practice, is quite quick - things like microwave and oven clocks don't need resetting. But, it wont be anything like as quick, or reliable, as the Multiplus 'less than 20 milliseconds' UPS functionality - presumably that is done electronically. Another attraction, for me (given not much space where the existing consumer unit is), with the Fusebox switch is that it fits in a regular din rail enclosure, whereas the Lewden is much bigger, especially depth-wise.

0 Likes 0 ·
Craig Chamberlain avatar image
Craig Chamberlain answered ·

Yeah, similar to my system as well although both of my consumer units are new and are RCBO based rather than split RCD boards. That said I do use a 50A MCB from primary CU to MP-II rather than a time delayed RCD/RCBO because I couldn't find such a device which was type tested for my Fusebox CUs. As far as I can tell a 50A MCB is perfectly fine in this context because any earth fault will cause disconnection of the MCB within 0.4 seconds given the PFC involved. I do of course have RCD protection to all sockets, lights and other consumer facing loads.

I also have a Fusebox SCO125 changeover switch arriving today and it will be installed in such a way as to select between the AC-Out1 MP output or the 50A MCB which supplies AC-In albeit upstream of the AC isolator so that I can isolate the MP-II while still supplying 50A to the changeover switch and secondary CU. I didn't feel any need to have a separate MCB for the changeover switch mains input since most of my heavy loads (EV, Cooker, Shower) come directly from my primary CU.

Another thing you'll want to have installed is an earth rod to provide a reliable earth connection in the event of grid failure. You MUST NOT rely on the incoming DNO earth when running off grid because it could have been damaged or otherwise disconnected. You must have an independent earth. This "TT" earth can however be attached to your main earthing point along with the DNO earth but your electrician will keep you right on that.

Which Multiplus-II variant are you installing out of interest? And are you aware of the situation with G99 type testing approval for the Multiplus-II at present? Short version is that compliance with G99 was suspended for new installations in September due to some new rules, but that compliance is likely to be reinstated following some technical changes in firmware very soon.

Hope this helps.

2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

pauldunn avatar image
pauldunn answered ·

Thanks for the detailed response, especially about the earth rod.

Maybe I should have the existing consumer unit replaced and use RCBOs while I have the electrician on the job. Just this summer gone I lost an entire freezer load of food while on holiday which would not have happened if RCBOs had been installed.

Those Fusebox units with SPD look nice, is that the brand to use this days?

The MP 2 I will be using is 48/5000/70-50. I was looking at the certs and it seems to have been updated and mentions this variant is now supported for G99 https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Certificate-ESS-G99-1-2021-Multiplus-II-48V-3K(GX)-48V-5K(GX)-24V-3K(GX).pdf

4 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

johnone avatar image johnone commented ·

Re G99, that's the document Victron have submitted to the ENA - when they get round to it (snowed under currently) they will assess (well, they farm that out to a 3rd party) and decide whether or not to deem the Multiplus compliant (shouldn't take more than a few weeks).

However, it is ultimately up to the DNO to decide what can be connected to their network. Always best to ask them.

0 Likes 0 ·
Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain commented ·
You are most welcome, I think we are all on a similar journey.

I would certainly encourage you to consider replacing your existing CU with an RCBO board especially given what you have gone through with your freezer losses. It will possibly bring other safety benefits depending on your existing setup.

I am also using a MP-II 48/5000/70-50 but wasn't expecting to be able to supply 72A from AC-Out1. I know the internal contactor can handle 50A and I know the inverter can produce around 19-21A but I didn't think we could get 70A+ out. If so then great but would appreciate if someone can confirm this. I thought I'd get 50A when grid was active or ~20A when on backup mode. Maybe I'm wrong.

I really like Fusebox units but I'm not a professional electrician. However if you look on YouTube for Artisan Electrics or Nick Bundy who are both well known, they seem to like them a lot. Hager is another good brand but seem to want to price themselves out of the market. I think Fusebox are fantastic value.

As @Johnone has already said, the revised G99 certification is in the process of being assessed by the ENA and my personal opinion, after a few disappointments, is that it will be approved compliant in the next 1-3 weeks.

I'd suggest getting your electrician to do an EICR to assess if there are any pre-existing faults. Then off the back of the test, get a quote to replace the existing CU and add a new one as per your design. You'll probably get surge protection as well as better discrimination in the event of a circuit trip, and will have an overall safer 18th edition setup. Replacing a consumer unit with the knowledge that there aren't any split ring final circuits or other faults should allow the electrician to bring the price right down.

0 Likes 0 ·
johnone avatar image johnone Craig Chamberlain commented ·

Ooops - (as others have noted) the Multiplus G99 docs on the ENA db, the ones dated 29th Nov, have today updated to 'Further information required'. Be interesting to hear what the problem is??

0 Likes 0 ·
Craig Chamberlain avatar image Craig Chamberlain johnone commented ·
yeah, it’s incredibly frustrating isn’t it. Starting to wonder if I’ve backed the wrong horse. Would love to be proven wrong but that has to happen soon because I’m not going to stay in limbo forever.
0 Likes 0 ·
sharpener avatar image
sharpener answered ·

If you are worried about losing a freezer load of food you might want to install a changeover contactor in place of the switch, with the coil wired to the output of the Multi, then if it fails the loads will automatically switch back to grid.

2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.