hi, i would like to know if victron mppt charge controllers support wind turbines? if yes could i run 2 controllers in parallel, one with solar and one with a wind turbine?
Thanks
Lief.
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hi, i would like to know if victron mppt charge controllers support wind turbines? if yes could i run 2 controllers in parallel, one with solar and one with a wind turbine?
Thanks
Lief.
Hi, greetings from Denmark. Following this interesting thread due to my own wind/ solar project.
I am a solar installer from Gsol Energy Global, we make offgrid and on grid Solar systems for the UN.
In my private project, I am allso building a hybrid system containing wind and solar.
Technical information -
Wind turbine 1kw 3phase Greef generator mounted on 9m mast, with home made blades( vertical )
Victron quattro 10000Va,
Ccgx, lynx shunt can bus,
smartsolar 250/70 as wind input with rectifier, and 10000uF capacitor infront.
Smartsolar150/100 for pv.
Wind break will be added through a changeoverswitch later. I can raise and lower wind tower at will, and the vertical design is not prone to overspin due to the design.
My problem is that windmill it is not transferring power, even though i got strong wind and 60vdc at the pv input side. And the voltage on battery bank is more than 5v lower (51,2v - 57,6 is cycle use)
I was thinking that voltage from generator is to close to the battery voltage, I was thinking about putting a voltage stepup module infront despite the loss..
Any thoughts from you guys?
Still in the build/test phase
Hello @Myren
I'll begin with the caveat that I am not a pro installer here.
But very interesting setup you have there, so wanted to give you a temporary reply as we have been experimenting for some time with something very similar.
I am sure others more qualified will chime in, but you are probably missing a piece of equipment between the turbine and the regulator that allows programming of the power curve of the turbine to your regulator and keeps it loaded with dump loads. The Victron smart solar regulators are certainly great for PV but may require a tweak or two to do wind and hydro well.
Hi, I'm really interested in your experience with wind generators. I'm trying to integrate our two wind generators into our victron system but my victron consultancy in holland don't want to have anything to do with it ("beyond the scope of our consultancy"). Do you offer advice or consultancy, or do you know of someone who can? My email address is a.dewhirst@designerdock.com (Alexander Dewhirst)
Hello Lief,
no, it is only officially supported, to connect solar panels to the MPPT's.
That does not mean that it wouldn't unofficially work, when you know what you are doing. :o)
I do use Victron Solar chargers with hydro turbines for over a year now, without any issues at all.
The main problem is see in connecting a wind turbine, is a missing storm brake that short circuits the generator to brake in stronger winds and the battery is full etc...
You would have to implement something, but be careful, to short circuit PV input under load can destroy your charger.
And yes, it is possible to connect several MPPT chargers in parallel to the battery.
Regards,
Markus
Just to clearify, i did never ever kill a Victron MPPT, I just saw what happened with a friends charger, after he drilled through both PV wires... There were bubbles appearing on the surface of the charger. Not nice :o(
Very useful info for your project :
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ese3.1313
Regards
Can you please give more details about the configuration of the hydro turbine - MPPT charger because I am trying to add water generator to an existing solar based system?
regards
amacris
Hi everyone here,
This thread is quite old now, but to hold my promise "I will deep dive into some wind applications with Victron MPPTs and bring up a solution and keep the community updated. "
@WKirby and I developed a turbine controller device, that can be used with Victron Solar MPPTs to be able to connect wind and hydro turbines.
Here it is:
A quick specification preview:
Inputs:
DC main turbine power input; max 250Voc 120A Isc
Outputs:
DC out for the MPPT charger
DC out for a water heater
DC out for a dumpload (failover if the water is hot)
3x 2pin temp sensor analog in (LM335 compatible inputs, can be used as digital inputs);
.) contact type wind speed sensor
.) water temperature
.) dumpload temperature
2x 3pin NC-COM-NO Relay Outputs using small G5V relay. (can be used to lock the wind turbine, or control of a water lock valve, or to control a fan)
Ve.direct port.
BLE port for VC.
A short description:
Turbine power, that is not used by the MPPT can be used to heat water. If the water is hot enough, the dumpload resistor will be utilized instead.
It is also possible, to use only a single dump load.
The controller will take care, to brake the turbine if neccessary and even avoids to stall it.
There is an output available to drive a turbine lock / water valve.
The current development stage is to create (finish) a firmware for the device.
The reason I post it here is to inform the community, that there is a solution in the works.
And I am very interested, in how big the demand for such a device is, to maybe be a motivator (booster) for the work that still has to be done.
Best Regards,
Markus
Any updates on when this might be released? even if its an unsupported prototype I would be keen on going down this route.
What is your estimate of price that you would sell them for? (thinking a complete unit but no enclosure)
At this stage it is hard to estimate the exact price for the end product.
The prototypes that exist, have been assembled by hand. When the product is finished, we have to make a plan for mass production, then we have a better view to do a estimation.
But as a rough guess, it will be in the range of a smaller size medium range MPPT.
What do you think, would be a reasonable end user price for a unit?
BR
Hmm, I don't really have an opinion about a reasonable price for such a unit, but my expectation is that it would be priced as the higher end MPPT's. The reason being the lower amount of produced units compared to the MPPT's. But that's just my expectation. You guys know what you are doing and I think any price you choose will be reasonable. For me, the potential availability for such a unit would absolutely spark an interest to install a wind turbine. In fact, reading this thread has already made me look around for one and study what it's all about...
As is, I'm interested in using at least one of these in a nautical environment. More interested if a VE.Can model is available. Personal opinion, but I feel that VE.Can's RJ45 connection would be more tolerant of the forces ships undergo than VE.Direct would. There's also the potentially longer cable length and no need to source proprietary cables if & when something fails. :)
Are the connections at the far bottom right power inputs for the PCB?
Does the device accept the same input power voltage range that a typical Victron MPPT handles, that is something between 8 to 76.8 volts?
Nautical environment is a very good use case. It would be possible to use it for a wind turbine or a hydrogenerator.
Ve.CAN support is not planned at the moment, but I can see your point. Something to think about.
Yes. The connection at the bottom right is a power supply input. (10V-70V) At first, we had the plan to power the unit from the turbine only, this turned out to be tricky for configuration and other things.
BR
Hi Markus.
Many thanks for sharing this!
Well, if that is considered a boost, you have one order here if it does what it says ;)
May I ask if this is will be a Victron branded device or your own/something else?
Can you share anything else preliminary in your design and thinking?
One specific I would be extremely interested to learn is what the minimum practical voltage and current required from a turbine to charge a 48V system. A 24V system?
Could you comment on that?
Also curious what the smallest and biggest Victron controller that will work with this?
I would assume by the rating that it might be well matched to work with the SmartSolar MPPT 250/100?.
Exciting times! Many thanks for your work so far!
Hi houser,
Sounds good. Thanks!
Yes, it will be a Victron branded device and therefore compatible with the Victron ecosystem.
"interested to learn is what the minimum practical voltage and current required from a turbine to charge a 48V system. A 24V system?
Could you comment on that?"
Battery charging will be done by the MPPT charger connected to the turbine controller and the battery. Therefore the MPPT rules regarding charging voltages apply.
Vbatt+5V to start charging. Vbatt+1V to keep it going.
It's similar to panels: The higher the turbine Voltage, the lower the current is, to transport the same amount of energy. The turbine might not always be close to the turbine controller/MPPT. So this is a matter of losses (cable sizes).
"what the smallest and biggest Victron controller that will work"
The smallest possible controller will be the smallest available. For the biggest, it will be a 250V MPPT but we have to do maximum continuous power tests. It will also be a matter of enclosure/heatsink. We will see.
BR
Is this designed to take the rectified output of your turbine as the DC input? Might be nice to make a companion board with rectifier + brake relay?
yes, it is designed to take the rectified turbine output. A lot of thinking went into the rectifier part. The first prototypes had the rectifier onboard and a lock relay, but it turned out to be the rectifier, that produces most of the heat. We experimented with zero voltage drop rectifiers and in the end, we did it without, to be able to handle larger turbines.
.) there are lots of rectifiers around for a cheap price. It is easier to cool the rectifier when it's an external component.
.) The turbine lock mechanism should come/be certified by the turbine manufacturer. We have an output to drive external locking equipment.
In the end, leaving those parts out, allowed us to design a much more stable and reliable controller.
The first prototype though is perfectly working for over 2 years now.
BR
Hi @Markus ,
Really interesting product - I have been looking for something very similar recently and have had to improvise a little. Having a solution fully integrated into the Victron Energy world would be great.
You say "The first prototype though is perfectly working for over 2 years now. " which is very encouraging. Has that testing been with both wind and hydro applications, or just your hydro setup?
I'm very interested in how wind turbines connected via this controller to the Victron charge controllers would behave. For example, do the regular MPPT sweeps affect the turbine performance... I'd imagine that depending on the depth of sweep it could cause the turbine to stall? Also, how well does the MPPT algorithm cope with highly turbulent wind conditions?
Are you able to shed any light on this (yet) please?
BR
Richard
Can I get a contact email or number to discuss this project?
Thanks
Ross
For pricing I'd suggest 2 versions (even if they're almost the same hardware), a lower priced, higher volume unit for the very common 300-400 Watt wind turbines, maybe priced similar to the equivalent MPPTs, $150-$200 and then a more serious 1kW+ version in the $200-$400 range. I just bought a 300W turbine from aliexpress to test, if it works well I'll look for a bigger turbine, so I'd buy one of each eventually.
I bought a bunch of parts to build my own setup but I think I'll just wait for this to come out. Any chance you have a rough ETA? Early/Late 2022? Thanks for solving the renewable power in winter problem for those of us in windy locations!
Some components became unavailable due to component crisis, requiring some circuit board redesign and the software developer for this project is located in Ukraine and we have unfortunately no contact at the moment.
I hope, I have better news soon.
this is ridiculous!!! How can such important project be put on hold for years due to the Ukrainian developer is playing war game. There are millions developers out there who could easily take over such an easy software project. Why don't you find someone else? Or as many things at Victron, how about open source the code and let the community finish it. I could test your device and give feedback as i have everything from MPPTs to Wind Turbine.
schade. ich glaube das macht hier keinen Sinn mehr auf irgend etwas zu warten. :o(
I am sorry this project came to stop. The product is more or less finished for years, a Firmware has to be written. Warwick and me did what we could to realize this controller, but we can't write a proper end user firmware. 5 prototypes were made and 3 of them were sent to the developer and Victron on our efforts and cost. We had a lot of time and money involved in this project and it is sad that this was fruitless.
This is a frustrating situation and on the other hand I have a lot of work to do and little spare time left to push or make other efforts to finish the project, so this is what it is.
I kept one prototype for myself, if someone here has the skills and would be able to help finish the project (plus a redesign to change components that are not longer available), contact me via E-mail (markus(at)pauritsch.at), if someone will convince me, that he is able to finish the project, I would send the prototype plus the documentation we have.
Best Regards
Markus
Just wondering if you were still wanting to develop the wind turbine controller/circuit board. Please email me at voippede@gmail.com if it's an option.
Hello Markus,
Thank you for the update.
I am also keeping tabs on this for a possibility to use it and other Victron products for pilot testing of a wind turbine we are currently developing.
Right now we are using Morningstar but would gladly welcome more options..
Thank you.
Sincerely yours,
Jan
Hello all,
Not wanting to take anything away from the guys who are/were developing a wind turbine controller in this thread, however I wanted to let the community know that I have recently invested in an AirForce 1 Wind Turbine System from FuturEnergy , it is working really well with my Victron ESS setup. This is a 3-Phase AC permanent magnet generator with an 'Airforce Control' Turbine monitor and auto-stop system for 24V & 48V battery charge systems. The PMG outputs 167V 3-Phase AC which is converted to 48v DC at the Controller and puts this out onto the Lynx Distributor Busbar before my Quattro 48/8000/110-100/100 230V.
There is a manual turbine break switch on the 3-phase line before the controller and a number of settings in the Controller that will set the turbine break on and off if any of the max/min Voltage & Wind Speed settings are reached.
Additionally, there are Remote No/Nc connectors on the Controller from which I have used one of them to connect to one of my Cerbo GX Relays to stop/start the Turbine when the required SoC is reached or falls below, by whatever means of charging, and is monitored via a Victron Smartshunt set in DC Monitor mode.
My PV is Grid-tied so no more than 4000w, and at this time of year in the UK, not a lot of sun so not a lot of PV.
The Turbine has been up and running for approx 10 days now and has produced 13.5Kw so far.
FuturEnergy sell the Controller seperately and have said that it will work with almost any PMG and that they are happy to discuss any needs if anybody wants to use their Controller seperately on any other make of Turbine and output. The Controler will convert to 24v or 48v output from its system settings.
Hope this is helpful to folks looking for a wind turbine controller solution.
Hi Stroller, I have a 5Kw Tesup vertical wind turbine and also want to connect this to my 3-phase Muliplus-II 5000 system with ESS installed and is grid connected. Between the Multiplus-II systems and the 48V Lithium batteries I have the Lynx busbar. The downside of the Tesup CC is that there are no connections for external brake control, all is manual. When leaving the house and expecting bad weather, I will always manual brake it and cover the turbine to prevent rotation.
The batteries have a build-in BMS with a maximum charge voltage between 52.2v and 53.5v. All is managed by the Cerbo-GX. But I still do have a few questions for you:
Hope you can answer my questions, would be much appreciated.
@icavanaugh Sorry for the delay in responding to you. For some reason I didn't get an email to say you had commented. I have just tried to look up a TESUP 5Kw Verticle wind turbine on the TESUP dot co dot uk site and the dot com site but can only see 7kw HERA and ATLAS turbines, so could look at what you actually have.
The DC+ from the Turbine Controller is connected directly to the Lynx Busbar positive side with a 125 Amp MEGA Fuse as protection. (Not forgetting that my Turbine is only 1Kw [or just over], output when at full speed). The DC- goes onto a Victron SmartShunt connected to the Busbar Neg side. I was of course hopping that this would give me full DC readout and monitor in the Victron VRM but as many people and Victron have pointed out, the SmartShunts when confiured for use as a DC Meter does't yet show up in the VRM sadly.
I found a manual for the TESUP Charge Controller but it appears to be very basic indeed.
I note that it says there is a Mobile App to go with it but I don't know what controls it has within it. The FuturEnergy App and also a webserver site that I can log into to monitor my turbine has a whole host of controls that are being improved and added to all the time, including now a CANbus port. However Doug at FuturEnergy is also looking to add a VE.Can interface to them when he can get the time to do the programming etc.
However, to answer your questions as best I can:
See above info and attached pic.
My Turbine has a Davis Vantage Pro2 Anemometer and Wind Direction sensor connected to the controller as part of the system. With the controls inside the Controller, I can set at what wind speed the Brake is turned off for the turbine to start turning and likewise Max speed to apply the break. Once the Turbine blades are above a certain speed, approx 375 RMP, the turbine starts generarting and pushing into the batteries. below Gen speed, it doesn't matter as the Turbine Controller just reads what the Battery Voltage is. Both the App and my Web interface gives me Power in Watts and Current in Amps of what it is generating, along with DC Volts, Wind Speed and Direction & Rotor RPM.
See info above, but as said for my system, a 125 Amp MEGA Fuse.
I have done this but as I said, the SmartShunt does't integrate properly yet as a DC Meter in the VRM yet, so I use my App and Web interface.
Hope this and the pics help.
BR's.
Stroller.
I would not prefer to do so.
This actually prevents the batteries from being fully charged.
In stormy conditions, this might not be enough resistance and your turbine + MPPT could get destroyed.
I would go this way:
Use 2 rectifiers, one connected to the MPPT and one connected to be shorted by a strong relay and a paralleled switch.
You could then use the relay output of the MPPT or better a BMV, to toggle the relay and short circuit the turbine. Additionally you have a switch, to override.
The 2 rectifiers should prevent the MPPT from being short circuited on PV side.
Might work, may be worth a test ;o)
To stall the turbine, you can use a DPDT (double pole, double throw) switch or relay.
On the attached image, you connect the turbine on A1 and A2, the battery or charger on C1 and C2. And put a short between B1 and B2.
i was just thinking of not wasting valuable power, i could use a wind specific charge controller with a built in dump load, but the house is too far away from the power shed to use dc but maybe a cheap inverter connected to the dump out from controller?
i don't actually have anything setup yet so this is still hypothetical..
do you know if there would be an issue with have one victron charge controller and one midnite clasic? the other equipment will be victron multiplus, victron ccgx, victron mppt, pylontech batteries.
sorry i should have explained my situation a bit better, i've got 5.4kw of solar which will be way more than i need in the summer but will probably be a bit less than i need in the winter, thats why i want the wind turbine to supplement it in the winter months, i've got 10Kwh of pylontech batteries, they should charge pretty quick from the solar in the summer so i'll have excess power to dump, i want to use it for hot water in the summer cause my hot water and heating are from a wood stove and i won't want to light it in the summer,
another option is (like you said) to have the wind turbine running a grid tied inverter ac coupled to the multiplus, but then i would still be left with the problem of using the excess solar in the summer which is why i was thinking of just having the multiplus turning the water heater on and off at set voltages
Thanks for you help, its much appreciated.
If it helps this guy has lots of info on his site.
http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2016/07/low-cost-mppt-heating-controller-for-wind-turbines/
I have a D400 and have played around with a 100/50 mppt instead and together with the standard TB6 thank comes supplied. Sort answer, not real successful. With just the 100/50 yes it transfers power but due to the way the mppt works the D400 acts like it is not connected to a load, so it spins faster than normal making more noise and eventually does a 360 like it does if not connected. It also didn’t produce any more power than the TB6 which is a PWM controller with dump load. The TB6 is very rudimentary and has no real settings nor monitoring. What I really wanted was the blue tooth monitoring the 100/50 offered. I even tried installing the 100/50 after the TB6 but this also fails as the TB6 doesn’t see the battery voltage out the solar input on the 100/50 so yes the 100/50 sees a voltage at the input from the TB6 but all the current is diverted to the dump load, nothing to the batteries. So far I’m yet to find anything that works better than the supplied TB6 as it seems to control the load to the D400 to keep it spinning at the optimal speed which also means less noise. I think what I need now is Hall field sensor that I can put on either of the output lines of the TB6 that also takes a Bluetooth dongle that just allows the monitoring. I guess I could use something like a BMV but that would be an overkill
I have a Multiplus II 48/10000 (ESS Setup), MPPT 250/100, Fronius Primo 8.2-1 (AC Coupled), Cerbo GX, and 32,5Kw of Pylontech US3000C. 35xHyundai 395Wp Modules in 3 strings, 2 for the Fronius and one for the MPPT.
My objective is to add an extra boost to charging in Winter but I want the wind integrated (DC Coupled ideally) with the Cerbo GX to control the charging hence the desire to use a Victron MPPT Charger.
Alternatively I've though of setting it up in AC Coupling but woulde again need to find a model that would accept the power copntrol through frecuency shifting like with the Fronius.
I think that if Victron could work a version of an MPPT with a or some brands of wind generators, they would have a hot selling products. Not just for homes and offices/rural projects, but especially also for the nautical market.
If a viable solution is known of, please share it.
Hi Markus,
Interested to get two of these to test.
How can we contact you?
Many thanks,
Ross
thank you very much for your interest.
At this stage, we don't have a "end user operable" firmware.
To change settings, you have to program the unit via serial console commandline.
The prototype units are handmade and at the moment a lot of the electric components have very long(!) shipping time. To use substitute parts, we would have to redesign the circuit a bit.
When we have a stable end user friendly firmware we will for sure need testers with different applications. Also we need to build those units for the tests.
When we are ready to do tests with a larger group of people, I will come back here for sure.
BR
- Multiplus II 10KVA
- AC Coupled Fronius Primo 8.2-1
- DC Coupled 250/100 MPPT
- Cerbo GX
- 9 x Pylontech US3000C
Looking for wind to suplement the less sunnier months as I have a 16kW heat pump for hot water, central heationg and air conditioning amongst other loads.
I don't have wind yet but have a good place for it with great clearance and as we are in a high altitude place (some 724m amsl), we get great wind when it blows.
I would be willing to share my VRM data.
I am very interested to hear more and possibly purchase two of these devices for a couple of off-grid solar systems that I'm currently designing. I mostly use Victron equipment as to me it presents the most useable modular platform, which is easy to create bespoke systems for my individual customers needs. Up until now I have mostly worked on inland boats and ive not really ventured into wind or hydro as its not presented itself as a cost effective efficient design basis but im now venturing into land based projects which could really benefit from wind power.
I had considered trying to use a b2b system with an Orion but it seems like a round about way to me.
having a Victron turbine regulator would be very useful!!
please tell us more when you are closer to a finished design!
I am an embedded software engineer, so trailing and doing stuff over a serial connection is fine by my.
I am in a windy place in the Netherlands and also wishing to integrate it DC coupled via a Victron Smart Solar, so it is part of the Eco system.
Thanks in advance
I understand the Ukrainian software developers may have difficulties with their current situation, but I trust Victron has found a solution to this, along with material sourcing complications.
Really looking forward to an update and possible dates.
Speaking as a retired engineer working with aerodynamics: I don't understand why an MPPT charge controller that is intended to work with a power source (photovoltaics) that actually HAS a maximum power point voltage would be used with a wind turbine generator that does NOT have a maximum power point voltage. It seems you all are giving up a lot of power conversion efficiency and introducing unnecessary complexity just to achieve the administration and metering capabilities of the VE MPPTs. And the power losses of an MPPT controller would be far higher than the miniscule loss of Schottky diodes.
As the airfoils ("blades") on a wind turbine spin faster, more parasite drag is created. The wind-to-power conversion efficiency will be maximum at the lowest rotational speed that will keep the entire foil length unstalled. Any rotational speed above that wastes power. That's why you see a gradual rise in the power curve to a maximal point followed by a saturation plateau with a flatter slope in the velocity to power curve with common fixed-pitch-airfoil turbines. The manufactures will often put some twist in the blades to spread out that curve, but at the sacrifice of optimal performance at intermediate rotational speeds.
All an MPPT photovoltaic controller can do is vary the load on the turbine, which would - once the foils are unstalled - have a detrimental affect on power conversion. Simply routing the output directly to the battery through a diode, that will not present a load until the diode is forward-biased to permit spin-up, would be optimal, provided the airfoils are properly designed. Any other improvement in efficiency would have to occur at the air-to-foil interface: some improvement could be achieved by varying the pitch of the airfoils to remain at an optimal angle-of-attack (here is a description of how that is accomplished: https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/50451), but that algorithm is mechanical and is very different than the behavior of an MPPT controller designed for photovoltaics.
If you want Bluetooth interface capability and good metrics on voltage, power and current, I suggest you try using a Smart Shunt instead and let turbine controllers and MPPT controllers do their separate jobs.
I believe you are trying to make applesauce out of oranges.
Hi, thank you for your constructive input.
I am far away from being retired, but an engineer.
Could you please try to explain to me, why a PMA generator has no maximum power Voltage.
There are advantages in losses, if there is a higher turbine Voltage than BattV. If you have a higher turbineV, you will need some DC-DC conversion to be done.
Could the MPPT harvest more energy in lower winds?
It is not us, that say: a wind turbine harvests up to 250% more energy when connected to a MPPT. It's Midnite solar, a competitor. We only say it makes sense.
We also want the 3 stage charging. And of course the monitoring.
Best Regards
Markus
I would prefer a conversation instead of following all the edits to your post.
Please explain, why a wind turbine always has the same power Voltage in variable winds.
“All an MPPT controller can do is vary the load on the turbine”
This is not the only thing a MPPT can do. It can search for the max. power Voltage. This allows the turbine to spin up more easy and has other advantages too.
By the way: it would be possible to use the turbine controller without a MPPT too. For this, turbineV has to match batteryV and we would need to implement a charging curve to the controllers FW.
PS: I do not question, that a variable turbine geometry would be the best and nicest solution to have. But maybe not that easy to accomplish.
Our turbine controller solution is meant to cover turbines available on the market. The vast majority has fixed blades.
Why does power increase until a certain RPM and then start to decrease with continuously increasing RPM? Surely the RPM at which the generator is producing its maximum power equates to the maximum power point of the generator?
"Why does power increase until a certain RPM and then start to decrease with continuously increasing RPM?"
Drag increases by the cube of the airspeed, while lift (power output) increases by only the square of the airspeed. (A simplified answer without all the calculus.) So as the speed increases, drag overcomes lift and a limit is reached where drag overcomes lift.
My question was why does the power output of the generator, after a certain RPM, actually decrease with increasing RPM? The power to RPM peak is the maximum power point of the generator, so therefore a generator does have a maximum power point and having this power point tracked would be very useful.
Reply to all above: Please read the paper below, where achieving a maximum power point was carefully explored. The solution is to use mechanical MPPT variable-pitch airfoils -- not an electronic approach with fixed-pitch airfoils. Trying to use a photovoltaic MPPT controller is reinventing the wheel. It's already been tried -- years ago -- and found to work as well as square wheels. But I'd love to be proved wrong!
https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/50451
And here's a description of a variable-pitch vertical axis wind turbine: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315040403_Numerical_Analysis_of_Design_Parameters_With_Strong_Influence_on_the_Aerodynamic_Efficiency_of_a_Small-Scale_Self-Pitch_VAWT/figures?lo=1
Yes, if your turbine controller is too primitive to provide the multi-stage outputs (absorb, float, etc.) you need, then you can use an photovoltaic MPPT controller, albeit with all the losses that will entail. But be prepared for all the unfortunate behaviors described in the thread above. The worst being turbine overspeed while the MPPT unloads the turbine seeking the illusory maximum power point. (BTW, if you really want to go that route, to prevent frying the MPPT controller with overvoltage states, I suggest using zener diodes of appropriate ratings across the turbine output to clamp the output voltage to an upper limit. If the MPPT limit is 100 volts, one of these with a heatsink should work fine: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/nte-electronics-inc/NTE5284A/11646599)
What you really need is a controllable variable-pitch impeller to provide that staging. The market should demand that capability instead. Variable-pitch designs also eliminate the need for airfoil twist that trades off coupling efficiency for slow wind speed startup ability.
I'd never try using a photovoltaic MPPT controller on a wind turbine, but those of you who have should try this experiment: configure a DPDT toggle switch to send the turbine output to the MPPT controller or directly to the battery. While measuring the output current in a reasonable amount of wind, switch between the two and see which method: MPPT versus output-direct, produces more power. To be fair, give the MPPT controller time enough to "settle", and then take an honest average of each output because the MPPT controller will be very busy hunting and wasting power while continually running its algorithm.
Personally, I don't need multi-stage charging. I'm using LiFePO4 batteries that do not require absorption or floating. (Does anyone still use lead-acid batteries?) I have 400 AH of LiFePO4 batteries on board my sailboat in a 12 volt bank, and I use a simple voltage/tail current detector to dump the turbine output to a diversion load whenever the terminal voltage reaches 14.2 volts and the tail current drops to 7.5 amps (0.03C). (It's vital to also measure tail current in detecting the end-of-charge threshold!) Charging resumes when the terminal voltage drops to 13.35 volts. It's that simple. A voltage/current sensor and a relay. Done! Complexity is the enemy of reliability. Here's an excellent article on charging LiFePO4 batteries: https://nordkyndesign.com/charging-marine-lithium-battery-banks/.
Anyone who has flown an airplane having a variable-pitch/constant speed propeller knows the advantages: adjusting the pitch provides optimum coupling of power to the airflow with changing airspeeds. The same works in reverse for wind turbines. And to shut it down, you can just feather the airfoils, eliminating all of the loading caused by induced drag, stopping the turbine entirely and providing a much more survivable turbine in high wind conditions.
But also the most complicated way.
There vast majority of the turbines available to the market have fixed blades. The goal was to have a solution, to operate those turbines in a Victron system.
Our controller is not “too primitive” to provide a charging curve on the output, but the current firmware can’t do that yet.
Thanks for your input though.
It's too bad variable-pitch constant speed impellers aren't more common. All it takes is a centrifugal governor. The non-gravitational type can be found on some propeller designs. But good luck getting a patent on that. James Watt invented it in 1788.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_governor
VAWT can handle high wind speeds and IMO making them less strong with dynamic balde angle is not worth of it if more or less the same can be achived electronically.
From a pilots point of view, I believe it is merely there to give a constant angle of attack along the blade as the impinging airflow meets the blade at different angle due to the rotational velocity increasing as you move out from the hub.
hi!,
I found this turbine with integrated voltage regulator.
I am planning on installing it at an existing project running MPPT 250/60, four solar panels, a SmartShunt and a 48V battery pack.
According to the user manual, it seems I can connect this turbine directly in parallel onto the batteries.
I am very interested to hear more and possibly purchase two of these devices for a couple of off-grid solar systems that I'm currently designing. I mostly use Victron equipment as to me it presents the most useable modular platform, which is easy to create bespoke systems for my individual customers needs. Up until now I have mostly worked on inland boats and ive not really ventured into wind or hydro as its not presented itself as a cost effective efficient design basis but im now venturing into land based projects which could really benefit from wind power.
I had considered trying to use a b2b system with an Orion but it seems like a round about way to me.
having a Victron turbine regulator would be very useful!!
please tell us more!
Hi Marcus,
I am thinking of adding a low power eg 150W wind turbine to my PV system at a remote mountain hut in the north of Scotland. January's weather pattern has been an endless succession of unsettled cloudy (& windy) days meaning that even with 4kW of PV panels installed the batteries are slowly discharging simply running the base load of virca 17W! I am considering a vertical axis turbine. Less efficient I understand but possibly more robust and quieter in a challenging location. Thus I stumbled upon this thread. I am wanting all the advantages of Victron's remote monitoring, etc and so I am thinking it will be worthwhile waiting for this development to come to market. So 2x questions:
1) Any update on progress?
2) Would this connect to existing MPPT somehow or would additional charger be needed with this as an interface?
Thanks for your time and any info.
Regards,
David BInney
Hello @Silent power australia
Curious about your use of an Orion DC-DC as a wind turbine regulator.
Any chance os some more info? Especially the voltage requirements and limits for the alternator? The biggest 48-48V Orion can charge max 380W if I am not mistaken.
Have you used this in a 48V install? Many thanks for any comments.
Houser
This has been my only install using Dcdc to charge lithium from a wind generator. The alternator was 600w but actually in real practice they only put out a very small percentage of the max rating. From this experience I wouldn’t rely on wind to charge battery banks reliably. My preference is motor drive. Alternator and or Solar.
Cheers
Andrew.
This thread has so much promise and many actual users ready to spend their money on the project that Markus and Warwick are working on with Victron.
I sincerely hope Victron will nudge this higher on the priority list soon, as it makes so much sense.
All the best and many thanks for all your hard work!
What is the status of this new project?
You stated maximum voltage and current that it can handle, with VAWT-turbine I'm not exactly sure of it, but those are typically listed in total power, can it handle 12kw axial-flux generator power?
Hello All.
Just a sugestion but would it not be better to use a dedicated wind turbine with its own dump load ect and connect it to your battery bank as normal (providing the controller can charge lithium). I have seen these turbine controllers online and can't say I think short circuiting the PMA windings as a brake is the best idea ! Why not a wormdrive and brake pad on the turbine shaft with a solenoid driven pin to lock the shaft when it has completely stopped ? Still technical but nowhere near as complex as a full blade pitch and feathering system.
As for the meat of the matter .... Monitoring production for displaying localy and on the vrm why not simply use a BMV712 or Smartshunt set to DC energy monitoring mode ? That would give you separate data on hydro or wind turbine production.
As for a complete Victron turbine based charge controller I would definitely buy the Victron unit but I think that is something best developed with an expert like "cpt-pat" or a turbine manufacturer.
Personally I think OEM for charging / dump control and a BMV712 or Smartshunt for the monitoring is currently the best solution. I'm quite surprised Victron haven't designed an out the box solution already.
Hallo Marcus,
nun könnte ich eine funktionierende Platine gebrauchen.
Kann die Windturbine auch 3-phasig sein?
Ich sehe nur 2 Eingänge
Gruß Mario
Same here, I am actually fairly surprised that Victron does not have something to interface the DC output of a wind turbine controller with their system such that it can be controlled. Even having an MPPT with a fixed programmable curve will solve the problem. (I am not into splitting differences about a 2% or 5% efficiency discussion if the answer offers a safe integration) This should be possible without too much trouble if Victron is willing to come to the table. The wind and solar combination will offer a far superior renewable energy solution.
I am having to integrate 4 x 5kW turbines with a 135kVA, 320kWh system, and there is no way I will allow the wind controller direct access to my 320kWh Freedom Won battery pack. Wind controller reaction time is just too slow.
This system is supplemented with 50kW SolarEdge grid-tie on the AC output, and the frequency shift control works like a charm.
Having a quality Victron solution for wind integration is long overdue, and I do get the idea that Marcus may be close to an answer, for which we will all be grateful!
Jan
Hi folks, I join the discussion. I made a generator to use with a vertical (therefore slow) turbine. The generator, off the diode bridge, makes me 90V/3A at about 500rpm (about, I think, I couldn't measure exactly) and 12V/0.9A at 120rpm. I wanted to exploit something of power even when the turbine gives me lower voltage (my MPPT 150/45 requires at least 63v at the input to activate). Do you have any solution? Like activating DC step-up when Vin < MPPT min V and deactivating when Vin > ? Thanks for your attention, bye
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