Quattro 120/240 selling to grid in USA: which country code? IEEE1547 compliant?

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abrahamsolar asked Apr 25, '19

Quattro 120/240 selling to grid in USA: which country code? IEEE1547 compliant?

Hi from a longtime Victron reseller in Colorado. I have a solar home sales opportunity where there are no code inspections--hence little worry that Quattro has no American style UL1741 label.

AC coupling or DC coupling is still undecided but either way I need approval to "sell" excess energy into the "mains". Lawfully grid-tied Victron may be a first for this side of the pond.

The public power company wants compliance with "IEEE Standard 1547 Guide for Distributed Generation Interconnection". Here's a link:

https://standards.ieee.org/standard/1547-2018.html

but is that equivalent to any of these grid code standards in VEConfig3?

The mains engineers are more likely to approve the intertie if I can document Victron compliance with IEEE1547.

How about that Victron Energy Staff? Any thoughts or help? Thanks in advance~

ESS grid VEConfigure 3

kimg0261.jpg (557.1 KiB)

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abrahamsolar commented · Apr 29, 2019 at 09:38 AM

@mvader (Victron Energy Staff), can Victron chime in on this question? Thanks in advance.

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mvader (Victron Energy) answered · Apr 29, 2019 at 10:42 PM

Hi @abrahamsolar. Sorry to say that we do not comply to that requirement, yet. Once we do, it will be mentioned in the product certificates.

I don’t know when we will. Impossible to give any dates at this time.

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abrahamsolar commented · Apr 30, 2019 at 12:40 AM

Acknowledged & appreciated @mvader (Victron Energy Staff).

Since Fronius does have IEEE1547 & the Fronius AC will merely pass thru the Quattros during normal times--& if the mains provider agrees that the pass thru doesn't affect Fronius "anti-islanding" or other 1547 functions--

Will things work properly if I don't select a "country/grid code standard" (& no ESS) but merely select assistant (0172) PV Inverter Support to curtail the Fronius wattage as needed during a blackout on the mains?

If we go all AC coupled that should help my efforts to persuade. The project would involve two 10k Quattro @ 120/240v AC & one Fronius 10k Primo @ 240v AC. Batteries will be LiFePO4 with no need for BMS communication to Victron. This part of the US power grid can accept unlimited sell back.

My clients are eager to leverage the assistants & other Victron benefits not available from my other inverter suppliers. I think I can get a letter from Fronius US to confirm that their 1547 functions aren't affected by the pass-thru.

Thanks again for the crash course on advanced Victron set ups~

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mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ abrahamsolar commented · Apr 30, 2019 at 04:50 AM

Hi AbrahamS,

You can install the PV Inverter in to places: after the inverter/charger, ie. in series with it.

On on its input: in parallel.

Installing it in series is done when you want to have the PV Inverter operational even during a grid failure. Then the inverter/charger will be the ‘grid forming device’. To make the Fronius accept the grid thats made by the inverter/carger, you’ll need to set it to a special country code (MG60). And then it no longer complies to the standard you mentioned.

So instead, why not connect the Fronius to in parallel, ie on the input? And then the inverter/charger has a simple backup purpose.

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irwinr commented · Feb 22, 2023 at 04:25 PM

Hi @mvader (Victron Energy) : Just curious since it's been a few years since this question has been asked: Does Victron meet these requirements yet? Are any Victron Inverters permitted to "sell back" power in the USA?

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Answer 1 · 2019-04-30T00:39:39Z

abrahamsolar answered · Apr 30, 2019 at 12:39 AM

Acknowledged & appreciated @mvader (Victron Energy Staff).

Since Fronius does have IEEE1547 & the Fronius AC will merely pass thru the Quattros during normal times--& if the mains provider agrees that the pass thru doesn't affect Fronius "anti-islanding" or other 1547 functions--

Will things work properly if I don't select a "country/grid code standard" (& no ESS) but merely select assistant (0172) PV Inverter Support to curtail the Fronius wattage as needed during a blackout on the mains?

If we go all AC coupled that should help my efforts to persuade. The project would involve two 10k Quattro @ 120/240v AC & one Fronius 10k Primo @ 240v AC. Batteries will be LiFePO4 with no need for BMS communication to Victron. This part of the US power grid can accept unlimited sell back.

My clients are eager to leverage the assistants & other Victron benefits not available from my other inverter suppliers. I think I can get a letter from Fronius US to confirm that their 1547 functions aren't affected by the pass-thru.

Thanks again for the crash course on advanced Victron set ups~

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Answer 2 · 2019-04-30T23:40:03Z

abrahamsolar answered · Apr 30, 2019 at 11:40 PM

Hello & thanks again, @mvader .

I've done several AC coupled power projects using non-Victron electronics & I'm enjoying my Victron homework on this subject. I didn't realize that setting Fronius for "microgrid 60" would alter their IEEE1547 compliance, so your thorough explanations are very helpful.

The clients for whom I'm doing this planning work are "preppers" who are preparing for long term grid failures. They only want me to install solar arrays which continue working during a blackout. I've encouraged the clients to also "sell" because otherwise the solar arrays loiter while waiting for a blackout.

The "community" provides valuable access to the top minds in & around Victron. I'm completely self taught & going on 35 years in the biz, but I'm still refining my craft. Sincere appreciation.

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boekel ♦ commented · May 01, 2019 at 07:44 AM

There might be a work-around:

-have the PV inverter on a switch (could be a contacter) to switch from the input side of the Quattro to the output side, the output side only to be used when grid is disconnected. This could be automated (external circuitry or via assistants).

-no ESS / grid code in the Quattro, only the PV-assistant (and maybe assistants to switch the PV system to the output side)

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abrahamsolar boekel ♦ commented · May 08, 2019 at 02:43 PM

Hello, @Boekel Sorry for my delayed response to your helpful suggestion. I've been trying to reach Fronius Austria for their views. Unlike Victron, one cannot easily reach the top minds @ Fronius.

While waiting I've been chewing on this...instead of sleeping. Responding to Boekel's suggestion:

Even with mechanical switching to move the Fronius AC connections back & forth from Quattro AC IN 1 to AC OUT, the Fronius country code & associated software behavior cannot be automatically changed. Setting up Fronius for "Microgrid 60 hz" (https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:fronius ) handles the battery protection but if the grid voltage is running >60 hz the Fronius won't sell at its full wattage capability.

I still need to confirm that Fronius anti-islanding functions & other safety behaviors will still function the same so my quest continues.

>>Edit by Mick @ 2300 hours UTC on 5-8-19. I deleted some words above that I now feel are in error. Fronius info about "special purpose utility interactive" mode states that country code MG60 disables anti-islanding & cancels IEEE 1547 compliance. Drat, but I'm not quitting yet :-)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

If Victron could signal Fronius to modulate wattage by way of the local area network (or another method) instead of by frequency shift...that seems an elegant solution to this problem.

@mvader (Victron Energy Staff) if this is on the horizon however distant, kindly advise here or ask one of your technicians to contact me off list.

Thanks & Jolliness, community folk.

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boekel ♦ abrahamsolar commented · May 08, 2019 at 06:06 PM

Hi @abrahamsolar
I don't think you need the microgrid setting, or at least it's not mentioned here:

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ccgx:ccgx_fronius

So you can probably just use a couple of contacters to switch from input to output side.

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abrahamsolar boekel ♦ commented · May 09, 2019 at 12:21 AM

I think I see where the mind of @Boekel is going. I'll work on this outside the community for now.

If I'm slow to respond to further replies on this thread it's not for lack of interest; I'll need some percolation time plus info from better brains than mine.

Thanks & Jolliness~

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Answer 3 · 2019-07-18T16:32:39Z

ee21 answered · Jul 18, 2019 at 04:32 PM

I too am interested in deploying a MultiPlus in the USA; would the "other" option work for the time being, or are other country codes similar enough to use?

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abrahamsolar commented · Jul 18, 2019 at 05:35 PM

Hello from Colorado, ee21. I assume that you plan to comply with all regulations from the public power company & also from the electrical code inspector--& that's my usual advice.

If planning to "sell", ask the power company about their requirements; I've only seen IEEE1547 mandated one time which was this year. I suggest you make that phone call or find the regs which are published on the power company's website.

Two greater hurdles for code compliant US installation of Victron inverters are:

(1) The need for American style certification marks to the UL1741 standard. One model Multiplus will soon bear that mark & some Victron DC charge controllers have it already but I think that's all so far as of summer 2019. Look before you leap.

(2) The need for appropriate DC & AC switchgear, aka "integrating hardware". Without this, one would not pass American code even if the electronics are UL1741. Insulated solar wires are often shown in free air in photos, etc but that is non-code here in the States. I do have third party solutions figured out for the switchgear; other Victron distributors may also be addressing this need for their customers.

Since 2019 is the first year for a UL1741 approved Victron inverter, my usual mode in prior times has been to sell other brands whenever a system will be subject to inspection...& usually I buy the switchgear from the same inverter vendor.

The National Electrical Code is the letter of the law in most parts of the US...with bureaucrats to interpret & enforce those requirements. The final word on code compliance comes from the local electrical inspector. We call that the AHJ: "authority having jurisdiction"; some inspectors interpret & enforce the code differently from others.

I hope this will be helpful information. "You need to know your equipment vendor & your equipment vendor needs to know his stuff."

Sunny days~

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Quattro 120/240 selling to grid in USA: which country code? IEEE1547 compliant?

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