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Hi
I am looking to install my own ESS - Multiplus II with Pylontech US3000C batteries, solar on MPPTs on the DC side. I am happy to do all the design and install work myself, however I would ideally like to find someone who is MCS certified to sign it all off afterwards and give me a shiny certificate.
Does anyone know of anyone that would be willing to do this kind of thing in the South East of the UK?
I found a qualified friend who did the install with me and certified it all. Happy days!
Just an FYI, I believe Octopus are no longer needing MCS certification to feed back to the grid. If you search on YouTube for eFixx channel and it was in the last few days that they released the news.
Matt.
@Jon Young If you don't mind me asking would you be willing to forward me his contact details to jcve2010.2@gmail.com
I think you will find it to be a near impossible task.
I thought it may be a tall order, but I can't find any even remotely local installers!
I don't want to feed in... does it even need to be certified?
It only needs to be MCS certified if you want to switch to a feed-in electricity tariff and get paid for excess solar. You don't need to contact your DNO if the solar is less than 4kWh either. I guess the 4kWh limit can be ignored too if you're definitely not feeding in tbh but not 100% sure. I think they only need the info to help balance the network and if you're not actually affecting the network then...?
I've got a Multiplus II in my campervan in the UK. When I'm home it charges at night on the cheap rate and powers the house during the day. The solar on the van charges the battery via an MPPT and I have a small PV array in the garden on a grid tie inverter. There's a ET112 meter after grid meter in the house and this links to the van via a Zigbee RS485 bridge. When there's excess solar feeding into the house from the garden PV then the van charges the battery to keep the feed-in minimal. Works a treat!
PS. You can lower the EPC rating of your house with 2.5+ kWh of solar. I think this needs a MCS certificate too, unfortunately.
@dangos Did you find anyone in the end? I am also looking for an electrician to provide Part P sign-off so I can legally have this installed.
I am not even interested in FiT/SEG, and I am happy to work with the installer/electrician on the design of the DC side if they want custody of that.
I have all the configuration settings for VE.configure and GX ESS ready to assist them in commissioning it.
I even completed 10 of those Victron training videos with the certifications and I have built a few stand alone systems already so I understand how to get these things working, but I'm stuck by red tape of all things.
It is all a bit of grey area, I find myself stuck between MCS Installers who only do MCS, and electricians who seem to be shy of PV.
I wonder how @Jon Young got on, he had an electrican who seemed to be willing to install his equipment.
Alternatively you could do the install yourself and then get the local authority Building Inspectorate to inspect and certify your work, cost ~£150.
I used an electrcian to calculate cable sizes for the armoured cable run. I then dug and ran this 10mm cable (fun!). He then came back to Install the ET112 and to commission the new armoured cable to the garage terminating to a rotary isolator then testing etc.
I will then do the final connection from this to the multiplus-ii and the DC wiring.
A bit of late reply but wanted to correct some information.
All solar systems are notifiable to the local DNO, if it's under 4kw (peoples general understanding) or 3.68kw (single phase actual) after losses, you can just send in a notify form and they will ask for a drawing and your good to go, this can be done after install and working system.
If you want to connect over 4kw single phase then you can put in an application to the DNO to see if there is capacity to allow your connection, if so, you pay the contract fee and then you sign an agreement once signed by them you can connect the inverter.
I have 6kw inverter, (10kw of battery storage) connected single phase with DNO approval all self installed and negotiated with the DNO direct, including export payments from Octopus energy, there is no legal requirement for MCS for export, if you speak with Octopus they can accept the DNO approval form and will sort out a new export meter number, you can't get the meter number for export (if you have a smart meter you already have the ability to measure export) without the notification.
Hope it's helpful for you.
Many thanks, Craig.
Simon I (and I imagine a lot of others) would love to hear more about the process you went through in more detail.
I have made mistake buying PV panels, Inverter and finally roof kit :( as I tough it will only require sparky and all will start working from there. When I realized my mistake ... all MCS guys said NO...
And then I have across that forum/subject :)
Would you be able to answer few questions and help with that G99?
I'm happy to help you all, I will write up some things you'll need to know,
Am sorry Thomas, I didn't get any notification otherwise I would of wrote this up sooner, I did get one from Craig because of him "@" me.
Am out this evening but will try and come back tomorrow at some point to you both.
I have JA Solar panels accredited by MCS(found them on MCS web), growatt Inverter - can't find on MCS web but on website ENA is existing so for DNO is ok. My roof kit what - can't find on MCS web as I don't know name..
What should I put in section installer for G99?
Just put "self install" on the installer. The DNO don't care. You just need to get it signed off by an electrician or inspector. So get that lined up while the G99 is in progress. Once all done then just provide the DNO with the commissioning documents within 12 months of the permission granted letter.
On the form, the DNO just want to know what generator you are installing, how many phases, what power and what its ENA reference is along with a simple line diagram. Including any existing generators. To be honest if you can't produce a line diagram maybe get the G99 and install done professionally.
The DNO aren't interested what panels you have or what batteries, so don't put them on the diagram or form.
Also, MCS kit is irrelevant on a self install as you generally can't get SEG anyway. This is according to an email from Octopus. No MCS install, no SEG. Maybe others have circumvented this but expect you can't.
If you want a professional company to do your G99 and help if a G100 device is needed give Liam at G59projects.co.uk a call or email and he can help. I had him lined up because I got my 2 x 5k MP2 refused at first (I already have a 6k SolarEdge so was 14.8kW) after a 2 month wait but after some persistentence, politeness and talking my design over with a senior guy at WPD - I got permission without professional assistance. Just limited to 6kW export with my existing SE device. YMMV though, but get it in, wait and see what comes back. It is a first come first served so you don't want you neighbours filling up the capacity ahead of you!
The DNO aren't there to block you. They just need to be sure their network is protected.
Good luck!
To add to rata1, MCS isn't required for export payments and isn't a legal requirement either, just that the installation meets a certain standard:
So as long as you can get an electrician to put there name to it, i.e. they wire the connection to the board and maybe the solar connections, then that should be enough.
I am up to 17th electrical edition so i put this qual on my form to the DNO, as said the DNO don't care but this form is what I sent to Octopus and they accepted it and set up the SEG.
I think you might need to push on Octopus to say as MCS isn't a legal requirement what other proof will they accept, as it is down to them to decide.
Edited to add:
The DNO will refuse some due to balancing of the local phases, they can't have loads of solar on one phase, and they don't know what phase your house would be on so can't know if your neighbours are on different.
If you're going over 3.68 per phase, then a way around it is to go 3 phase supply, this then gives you 3.68 per phase without needing DNO permission.
There is an upgrade cost, unless you happen to be getting a 3 phase EV charger installed and then it can be free.
Thanks, I will look for the electrician that's first thing tomorrow.
Can I ask when did you get and how did you apply to octopus? I saw form on them website where i have to send them MCS cert.... Did you skip that step? Sorry for so many questions ..... Need to be sure before I will put panels up on roof :(
I'm in the process of installing an 8kw system, I have my DNO permission, max export 5kw, which is fine as I don't really want to export.
I'm almost done on install, can someone point me in the right direction to download a commissioning form? One to send to DNO
Many thanks
Andy
The first response from Octopus is that you need MCS, when I pointed out its not a legal requirement and asked what other proof they would take, they took a while then after speaking with the expert called Phil (internal), they said they would take the G83 form for notifying the DNO.
So, I'd use the SEG document, and send them the section that says it's not legal requirement for MCS and the SEG Licensee (which is them) can accept other forms of proof.
You've just got to push your rights on them, MCS is just red tape, as said, and I did put up the paragraphs that cover it, you'll get on the export.
Can you offer any further advise or do I need to start again with British Gas, working my way down the list of suppliers till I find one that will play ball?
For me, I am on the old FIT and Octopus aren't my payer so can't answer that one. The response I posted was sent to me by a mate who asked.
I would just give them a call and see what they say. If positive get them to follow up with an email :)
Cheers.
According to the Outgoing Octopus terms and conditions, they require an MCS certificate or an equivalent scheme accredited in accordance with EN 45011 or EN ISO/IEC 17065:2012 . I don't know what that means exactly, but it may provide an alternative possible route?
I'm also in the same boat looking for a MCS cert and with octopus. On my accepted G98 application where it asks for electrical competence I put down "Installed to latest section 18 standards", which are the most modern standards and they accepted it.
On the question of outgoing octopus That requirement quote (EN45011), is the same standard quoted by OFGEM Guidance, where companies can accept for green export payments without a MCS cert. Believe its an electrical standards requirement but intend to find out.
Also I do seem to have uncovered a bit of a large can of worms exactly why so called green companies like Octopus are holding onto "MCS certs only" , despite installations like my own exceeding current regs and inspected by an electrical auditor.
This is because they are receiving big referral kickbacks from the selected group of companies they get to give the quotes to their customers who express interest in having solar. On examining carefully several large system quotes ( 6kw with batteries ), it appears all have about 5-8K of profit built into the quote, as I can see what they are paying for the products as I have a trade account with solar supplier. In many cases its 40% of the quote.
Been informed kickback can be up to 1k depending on system size, customers not told or informed of this amount
Similar overtones to the miss selling endowment scams in the 1990's. Public needs to be informed.
Its actually taking advantage of those wanting a green system.
Why they are being protective of it while trying to hide behind a shield of "installer excellence", and insisting on MCS certs.
https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/131033/uk-ess-self-install-mcs-certification.html
Seems EN45011 is discontinued, and the other appears to be a requirement of auditing management systems. probably a system set up where regular quality performance checks are completed.
just looked up ENISO/IEC 17065 and it refers to conformity testing or auditing and the frequency is once every 5 years.
Most of my new start up solar installers are barely out of shorts, and have only been operating a few months. Bit of a joke really but they are hiding behind it.
Next stage is a detailed letter of appeal/complaint to Octopus, see if they accept it and quite honestly its only a few kw/ hrs as my system is small and sub optimal positioned. Do they really want to go to the next stage after that.
I have just commissioned my own self-installed ESS system with 9.6kWh of Pylontech batteries and 6.8kWp of PV panels and am generating way more energy than I can use or store at this time of year. I know it'll be a different story in winter and to a lesser extent in autumn and spring, but right now I could be exporting 10kWh+ of energy a day as a conservative estimate, more on good days.
I'm an Octopus customer already and although I know it's a long shot, I emailed "smart@octopus.energy" on Monday to ask if my system will qualify for an export tariff but have not heard back yet. I told them that I have G99 approval and have even received my export MPAN number from my DNO. I'm sure they'll tell me that I need an MCS cert but I thought I'd give it a go. The more of us who ask that question the better I think.
If they say no then I'll probably just get a hot water tank and divert my excess energy into water heating, or I'll buy a small aircon system for the house to make it more comfortable in the summer. I'm hoping that their unconventional approach to the energy market might allow them to break ranks though and embrace non-MCS certified installations.
I used G99 for my DNO application that has been accepted but now have until May next year to supply the commissioning form to the DNO.
Any help would be grateful.
Rob
Hi, the commissioning form was very straightforward to complete. I completed form A3-2 Parts 1 and 2 from doc "ENA Engineering Recommendation G99 Issue 1 Amendment 8 2021"
I put my own details in as both Generator and Installer including my existing MPAN number. I then described verbally the location of the generator and isolator as requested. The "Summary Details of PGMs" section just needs the manufacturer name (Victron), date of installation, technology type (Hybrid Inverter PV), ENA ref number, registered capacity per phase (4.4kW on Ph1 for me).
Commissioning checks were all "Yes" for me and information to be disclosed was only a "Yes" for the final circuit diagram which was a refined version of the very rough diagram sent with the G99 application.
Part 2 of the form requires a PGM reference or name which I just called "Hybrid Inverter 1" and then I circled "Yes" for all the questions on that page.
This was for a Multiplus-II 48/5000 with SP Energy Networks with no export restriction other than the registered capacity of the inverter itself so I didn't need to do any G100 stuff. Your own circumstances might be different and I would always recommend phoning your DNO agent and talking to them to ensure you satisfy their expectations. Don't waste time with emails as in my experience the round trip time for an email exchange can be 2 weeks or more.
Some time after I submitted the commissioning form I received a "Connection Agreement Table" to complete. This was just a bit of bureaucracy to be honest and just needed some basic info that could easily have been requested on the G99 form. Once that was sent back I got a signed copy of the connection agreement a little while later. This is the document that you will want to retain along with your house title deeds for when you sell the property.
Let me know if you have any specific questions - always happy to help. :)
This is a great thread and I am learning a lot. I am an Octopus customer currently on Flexible but aim to swith to Flux. I have 3kW installed with a Victron Multiplus II 5000/48/ 70amp inverter and a 3kW chinese (unbranded) LIFePO4 battery which cost me considerably less than the equivalent Victron batteries or other recognised brands. I installed all of it myself using a wiring diagram supplied by Victron and and happy to say it works quite well. So in the daytime (summer) I have way too much power that I can use. I could on sunny days use the washing machine, nearly all day and/or to charge 3 or 4 x 3kW batteries. I do need to connect to the grid and have gone on the MSC route and come to a dead end. I am in East Sussex and know a few electricians specialising in solar. One electrician in particular I am trying to get hold of as apparently he has signed off quite a lot of G99's. Also, I dont mind paying for a Victron trained engineer to commission my set-up as the battery is not communicating with other Victron equiptment and when the battery is fully charged it sometimes switches off, but not always. I am considering buying 2 or 3 more batterieswhich will probalbly solve the solution and in peak time could put all this power back into the grid, I will post a new thread in any case if I get connected to Octopus flux or not and through what documents/procedures this may entail. Also would appreciate any help with finding a Victron trained engineer operating in E sussex.
You won't be able to export via Octopus without G99 completed because your DNO will provide an export meter number as part of completing the G99 sign-off. You could complete G99 yourself or if you want to pay someone to do it then I'd recommend g59projects.co.uk who will do it for a fee of around £250 IIRC.
MCS certification is another thing entirely and I suspect you'll struggle to find someone who will put their name to an installation that you've completed yourself. That said, I know someone who sourced the parts for and partially installed their own PV array and then got it MCS certified by an installer for a fee. But in that case the installer insisted that they had to mount the PV panels and perform the electrical commissioning. So it was really just the mounting of the rails, the long runs of solar cable and physical mounting of the inverter that was not done by the installer, and these things were easy for him to verify visually when doing the other work.
Good luck though - let us know how you get on. I've still not had a reply from Octopus despite sending them two emails so I will need to chase them up again.
@ian_eastbourne Sounds like you have a similar set up to what I have. The way I went about it was to get someone to MCS supply and fit the PV on the roof. From that I got my MCS certificate. I have to sort out the DNO application because the installed f**ked up the original application. I did the witness commissioning myself with SSE which they were fine with as the whiteness commissioning is down to the owner of the system or his appointed contractor.
With the DNO application sorted, I gave the MCS and the G99 certificates to Octopus Energy who then approved me for export. Then I fitted my batteries & my Mulitplus II GX 5kVa, and with already approved for export, I then signed up to Octopus Flux.
I've been exporting for a year now and with the Flux tariff, I'm on track for earning more than enough to cover my winter electrical costs, so basically zero bills on my electric. I haven't paid an electric bill for 10 months anyway but I'm confident I wont pay a bill for the foreseeable.
https://vrm.victronenergy.com/installation/171934/share/db6807bb
So, I'll probably need to do an arithmetic exercise to figure out if Octopus Flux or Agile Octopus can beat my current Go Faster tariff (8.25p/kWh from 21:30 to 02:30). Unfortunately, since my PV installation is only a few weeks old, I have no data for autumn, winter or spring to base the calculations on. Also, my current tariff comes to an end at the end of August and Go Faster seems to have disappeared and the price has gone up, so I have a lot of variables in play.
Any tips on how to decide if Flux can work for me?
Background: 6.8kWp PV array, 9.6kWh batteries (increasing to 14.4kWh soon), BMW i3 EV taking typically 12kWh/day weekdays.
Thanks.
@Jason - UK exactly the same got my PV installed by a company approved MCS and currently installing the Victron system I’ve already got my export meter as part of the PV install and the DNO has approved the Victron install so like above I can export to anyone now
@Jason - UK and @Daza Unfortunately this wasn't an option for me as my PV is also self installed and is DC coupled so needs the Victron inverter to generate the AC for export.
Out of interest, is the export from your PV metered by a separate generation meter installed between PV inverter and grid or is it metered by your main DNO smart meter? If the former then presumably it won't be able to measure battery export via the Victron inverter since this wouldn't go through the generation meter. But if it's just metered by the DNO meter then I guess Octopus won't be any the wiser whether the generation came from PV or battery.
In any case, for me this was always more about self generation than export but it just seems a shame when, at this time of year I have more energy than I can use or store and could send some of this back to the grid to power all the air conditioning systems which are apparently necessitating the firing up of coal power stations to provide extra power! You would think that Octopus of all companies would be willing to drop the MCS requirement if it meant reducing the need or coal power...
@Craig Chamberlain, under MCS, it is a requirement that you have a MID compliant meter on all generating devices. Most solar inverter have generation meters but they are not generally MID compliant.
The reason Octopus Energy as well as most other energy companies request a MCS certificate is because a complete MCS install covers the whole installation. The installer, the produce and the installation standard have to comply with the MCS standard, that way the network know it should provide a minimum standard for connection to the grid as well as other installation standards. Otherwise, you end up with installations like on the below link wanting to connect to the grid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgBzqgXZhiY&t=25s
My system has a meter on the PV inverter output which is a requirement under MCS but my supper meter measures both import & export seperatly within the same meter, and also provides both kWh & kVah data.
@Jason - UK lol yeah that YouTube video is hysterical, or would be if it wasn't so terrifying! Even more worrying is if you look in the comments from the video, people seem to think it is informative and is inspiring them to do the same thing! One person even asked where they can get the double ended plug to plug it into the mains! Yikes!
Yeah, I'm well aware of the original need for MCS certification but I think there are plenty of us who are able to install our PV and battery systems to at least the standard of a bad or average MCS certified installer if not to the standard of the best. And let's face it, the technology involved has become much more commoditised in the last few years so is more accessible than ever.
Also, the G99 process is really the part which guarantees that the installation will play nicely with the network, not the MCS certification. I very much doubt that the installation in the YouTube video you posted would be able to get a DNO approval at either G98 or G99. Perhaps a scheme should exist where an MCS certified installer comes round and inspects a non-certified installation for a fixed fee a bit like an vehicle MOT test, or an EICR, and then either certifies it or provides a list of non-compliances to be resolved.
My smart meter is also able to track both import and export and shows that I have exported a total of 19kWh, partly from inverter ramp down delays and partly from some intentional export tests. I could be exporting much more but I'm certainly not going to do it for free! That said, I might let it export freely for 2 or 3 days just to get an idea of how much I can generate when not constrained by consumption or storage.
Feel free to take a look at my installation here: https://vrm.victronenergy.com/installation/229158/share/973445f3
Photo from the "plant room" showing a mostly complete installation. Still a few bits and pieces to tidy up but mostly labelled now. I've got a rack coming for my batteries which should be here tomorrow. It's a 16U rack so room for two more modules. Once installed I can clip the battery cables properly. The exposed wires at the bottom left of the inverter are just from a temperature sensor and will also be tidied up. I want to install a few more temp sensors at the same time. I also plan to install fire-rated plasterboard under the staircase just for additional safety even though the LiFePo4 chemistry is pretty safe already.
@Jason - UK WTF! and that guy has just disproved Darwin's theory how is he still alive and I would hate to be his neighbour! @Craig Chamberlain yeah the generation meter was before the smart meters and they have never taken it out as tech got up dated many installers are calling for it to go as the smartmeter does import and export. lol a scheme for MCS to inspect takes the money out of there pocket and with there over inflated labour rates, so I doubt they would ever do that too much money in it to lose. Nice install by the way, I’m still plodding along with mine just need to build a box to warm the batteries when I get them.
Thanks for the compliment on my install - always happy to receive any suggestions for improvement too.
Hi all,
I got a reply from Octopus finally regarding my question about getting an export tariff without MCS certification and this was the (predictable) response.
Thank you for your email.
The smart tariff team has informed that an MCS certificate is required to join any of our export tariffs. We won't be able to start an onboarding for an export tariff without this.
Any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
I will of course respond and try to convey my disappointment that such an “innovative” company is taking such a short-sighted, dogmatic view, but I don’t expect to get anywhere fast. Maybe I need to glue myself to the pavement or throw orange powder all over myself! Then again, alienating the public isn’t a great way to effect change. :)
I’ll update you if anything happens.
Here is my response to Octopus :))
Hi Josefine,
Thanks for getting back to me so promptly.
As you can imagine, that’s not the answer I was hoping for, especially from a company like Octopus who pride themselves on an innovative approach to domestic renewables.
I’m sure you’re aware that there is no legislative requirement for MCS certification and my DNO has already provided an export MPAN and are completely happy with my installation which also meets BS7671 electrical regulations and has been running successfully for several months.
So it is purely an Octopus policy decision not to grant an export tariff to customers like myself. I find this perplexing when I read in the news that coal power stations are being fired up because there is not enough grid capacity to power air conditioning systems in the summer when people like me could export solar energy to support such loads. Seems like a massive missed opportunity to me!
MCS made sense when FIT tariffs were introduced to kick-start the immature solar generation industry but these days it adds no value beyond what the DNOs and BS7671 already cover.
Time for a rethink I would say, and I know there are many who feel the same. Why not introduce an inspection scheme for non-MCS installations to establish if they are fit for purpose?
I read in a Guardian article that CEO Greg Jackson enjoys a small bath tub because it is efficient and quick to fill. If I can’t do anything more productive with my excess solar energy then I might as well buy a large hot tub and use the energy to heat it!
Many thanks,
Craig.
I copied my email to greg.jackson@octopus.energy and lucy.yu@octopus.energy (Director of net-zero) but I have no idea if these are real email addresses. Let’s see what happens! :)
@Craig Chamberlain its a paywall only open to the Boy’s club ;)
“ The Government has confirmed MCS as a route through which households can access the new Smart Export Guarantee (SEG). To be eligible, installations up to and including 50kw in size will then need to use MCS certified products, fitted by an MCS certified installer”
You can bet there is a fee to join and one to continue to hold membership which means they defo won’t do it on an install that they have not done. Don’t know if you could get an installer to do other works and get it certified that way just a thought. But the Boys are defo going to hold onto this as it’s guaranties if you want to export you got to go though them.
A professional electrician calculated the cable sizes for the armored cable run, then I dug and ran this 10mm cable (fun!). The electrician determined the size of the cable needed based on the circuit's load demands, the run's length, and the type of cable being used. This allowed for the correct cable size to be chosen, ensuring the circuit could carry the load safely. He then returned to install the ET112 and commission the new armored cable to the garage after terminating it with a rotary isolator, testing it, etc.
I just had an interesting phone call from a lady from Octopus energy acknowledging my recent emails and saying that Octopus will be moving me onto an export tariff in the next few days. I don't want to name the lady but she said she was handling the case personally and to expect a call back from her early next week as she was just gathering some additional details from my DNO.
It was only a very short call but she acknowledged that people like me are taking alternate routes to installation other than the traditional MCS route so hopefully this might be the start of something more widespread.
Kudos to Octopus if they are willing to listen to their customers like this. Really delighted that they reached out to me.
An important factor in the "you need MCS" problem is that, currently, very few MCS installers are capable of installing self-optimising ESS. Octopus are absolutely correct to recognise you are taking an 'alternative route to installation' because for most people there is no reasonable alternative. For sure, installers will pop up on here and say 'we can do it' - but at what cost, in what timescale and with how much after-install service? For actual data on this see MCS's own news story which states that MCS installs of battery storage for Q1 2023 are in the low hundreds (compared to 50k for PV only) - in other words, MCS installs of PV and battery are a fraction of total installs and hence the suppliers need to let go of the "you need MCS" rule.
https://mcscertified.com/latest-mcs-data-reveals-continued-demand-for-small-scale-renewables-in-uk-home/
Hi Craig,
I am a Chartered Energy Engineer with 20+ years experience designing commercial scale PV systems. I self installed in Oct 22 (far exceeding requirements of BS IEC 62548:2016) plus had DNO witness commissioning and building control inspect. But ever since then, I too have been battling against suppliers "computer says NO!" attitude to lack of MCS or Flexi Orb. I even tried appealing to Greg Jackson directly, however, It seems that Octopus might at last have relaxed their intransigence, so please could you provide me the name of Lady from Octopus, so that I can try once again.
Cheers, Craig.
Apparently I am the first participant in a trial process for non-MCS installations. The process involved going through a Q&A online "beta" form where I entered various pieces of information including an upload of my DNO connection agreement.
This is a trial process and may or may not become mainstream depending on how the trial goes I guess. I'll do my very best to ensure the trial is a success and I urge patience from others in the same situation.
I'm not going to post the name or contact details of my contact at Octopus because that would not be appropriate. Hopefully the fact that this process is under trial will be sufficient to provide some hope for others in the same situation as myself.
Please don't email Octopus saying, "<insert name> has been given a SEG tariff, what about me?" - instead, either be patient and await a new publicly available process, or maybe just ask a generic question like "can I get an export tariff if I don't have an MCS certificate?" in the hope that you might become part of the trial.
If you opt to do the latter then please ensure that you do have a DNO connection agreement and understand the difference between TIC (total installed capacity) and DNC (declared net capacity) as well as having installation dates and other info that Octopus may require. As DIYers we need to demonstrate that we can provide a solid installation and not a giant can of worms!
Hi @Mantis it's not so much about keeping this conversation secret but more about protecting the fragility of the new process. As you can imagine, there will be some with a vested interest in keeping the status quo and I'm keen to do what I can to add momentum to this new process as it will benefit us all if successful.
My guess is that Octopus are evaluating whether non-MCS installations are a dependable source of additional renewable energy or if they are too hit & miss to be worth the hassle. If there are enough installations that go through with minimal issues then the chances of this process being opened up to everyone is increased.
Fingers crossed! :)
Edit: Octopus have confirmed activation of my SEG export tariff as of this morning (Jul 31st). I have just given them my first export meter reading and things are starting to show up on the online portal. If only the sun would shine now!
Good work @Craig Chamberlain you seem to have made the breakthrough many of us have not managed in the past!
FYI, I referred to TIC and DNC in my earlier message. For me I put TIC as 6.8kW since this is the product of 16x PV panels at 425w each. And then DNC was 4.4kW for my Multiplus 48/5000/70-50 max output. When I did my DNO application last year these figures were not asked for individually and it was only the max generation that was asked for.
Also, I uploaded my DNO "Connection Agreement" as proof of approval. This is the document you get right at the end of the DNO process which (at least for SPEN) required me to sign two copies and have them witnessed before sending them back to be signed by a SPEN agent and one copy returned. You might also be able to use your connection offer document as proof but I'm not sure.
If you have any questions then please let me know. Good luck!
Hopefully it will all go smoothly. Would be good to be on Flux in the summer as I'm now driving the car less so have more to be able to export.
With regards the TIC and DNC, I put 4.4kW down as that's what's on the G99 application. Seems its a hangover of the old FIT scheme when I googled it. From what I could tell, as my solar - being on MPII - is all on the DC side, they dont care about the total output, so just put 4.4kW on both TIC and DNC. I'll see what comes back, if they query it then I can tell them theres 6.6kWp of panels. And also submitted the same signed Connection Offer/Agreement.
Was half tempted to get back in contact with ENWL as they were really good when I did my G99 and offered to set up the export MPAN for me, but I declined at the time. Can probably get it quicker via that contact than Octopus can!
@Craig Chamberlain what an outcome didn’t think they could go against the MCS grate job at least you‘ll get your surplus think it’s now for everyone else to argue there own case to there supplier now as it can be done you’ve proofed that :)
@Craig Chamberlain Thats a great result. I have been following your posts recently as I am starting out on adding battery storage and a Victron inverter to my existing solar setup. I am in West Kilbride and was wondering if you used a local electrician to commission and test the installation? I’m at the G99 application stage and picking up Victron Multiplus 2 48/5000 inverter next week.
Hi, I'm not very far away from you at all in that case. I'm about 2.5 miles from Dalry train station, just off the Dalry to Stewarton B707 road.
I did the electrical work myself actually, although I did initially try to find a local electrician who had the relevant experience. But I either got no reply at all or a silly price or silly ETA, or both! That's when I decided to buy a second hand MFT tester and some literature and just do it myself. Fortunately the electrics in my house were completely redone in 2008 so pretty standard stuff.
That all said, I wouldn't generally recommend that anyone tackle their own installation as it's a lot of work both to educate yourself, buy the necessary tools and then carry out the actual work. You would also need an MFT which is £300-400 even second hand. Hopefully availability of electricians is getting better these days but at the time I was doing my install it was just impossible to get anyone.
The G99 application was straightforward enough and although I used a consultant to do the application for me, I could have and should have just done it myself. But I didn't want any delays in the process. Thankfully, the G99 process itself is simpler now with the revised fast-track scheme, and of course the Multiplus-II 5kVA is now fully type tested which makes things simpler again.
Happy to help if you need any advice.
Did you complete the BS7671 testing yourself and send to DNO after commissioning? There are a couple of electricians locally who I will approach shortly and sound them out.
I will no doubt take you up on you offer of advice - thank you.
The DNO didn't require any evidence of BS7671 testing but I could have sent it if they had asked.
Actually the scope of my testing went way beyond just installing a new circuit for the inverter because I replaced a 16th/17th edition plastic, part RCD consumer unit with an 18th edition metal SPD RCBO board plus a secondary board for the inverter AC-Out1, plus changeover switch to select the input source for DB2 (either inverter or DB1). I did a full test before and after installing the new boards and resolved various faults as I've mentioned before. The only thing I've not yet done is a full wander-lead walk around the house checking earths on light fittings and back boxes etc. At least the lighting circuits are all now on RCDs which is an improvement! I have of course checked the cooker and shower as well as RCD testing all circuits. I also did insulation resistance tests on all circuits during board replacement.
Now I have my setup pretty much labelled up, I need to produce a startup/shutdown instruction card and other documentation which I will laminate and put in a little document holder next to the installation. I'm busy at present running CAT 6 ethernet cables all over the house which is proving to be a challenge! I've got the main runs completed now though and encountered some of the largest spiders I've ever seen in a UK house along the way! Three inch leg span I kid you not! I also found several loft spaces which are not insulated so that'll be another job before the winter arrives! :)
I have a question you, or others who read this, may be able to help with. As explained in previous posts, I am adding the battery / inverter to an existing system. I am not making any changes to the Solaredge set up and am intending wiring the Victron using only the AC-in connection and in ESS mode. The Victron manual recommends a 50A breaker for this input (/output). However I have read that as the AC-in connection supports up to 20A and AC Out 1 and AC out 2 are not to be used then I would be able to fit a smaller breaker on this input? I saw on another forum where someone using this configuration had used a 32A breaker. Interested to hear your thoughts on this.
I can feel your pain re running ethernet cables. We are in a 1930's house and when we moved in I ran Cat5e cables into every room. Usually when we were decorating the rooms so probably not quite as big an upheaval but chasing out lathe and plaster walls not much fun. Bought a cheap wall chaser last year for doing some work in my sons house and what a revelation. Spiders are getting bigger though!
Hi @wgoldie good to hear you are making progress. I think what you are suggesting sounds reasonable although I don’t know if this is an officially supported configuration. That said I can’t imagine it’d do any harm other than potential nuisance tripping, and that seems unlikely if you use a 32A breaker.
The only thing I would urge you to consider is to maybe use AC-Out1 to provide some “UPS” sockets for example to allow you to run extension cables to refrigerators and other essential loads in the event of a power outage. Of course that might have some knock requirements such as a supplementary earth and current protection on AC-Out1 but might be worth at least thinking about.
Cheers, Craig.
Hello again Craig. My battery installation is now finished apart from the labels and a few set up issues, now seems to be working well.
SP Networks approved the full export capacity of 8KW (3.6KVA solar and 4.4KVA battery).
The last hurdle, and I would appreciate some guidance from you or others reading this, is the commissioning process and in particular the A3-2 commissioning form.
Part 1 looks like just a copy of the initial application. Some of the commissioning checks in Part 2 look like they are part of the ENA Type testing, would you just answer yes to these and / or add that they are internal to the inverter/s? Are there any checks that are not applicable to this type of installation?
I will send them the A3-2 and the same drawing as the application with the changes that have been made since then. (CT Clamp instead of ET112). I assume I don't need to send any G100 Export limitation installation and commissioning test forms as they haven't applied an export limit.
Thanks in advance.
Bill
Hi @wgoldie , congrats on your installation, it looks like a nice tidy setup.
As for the commissioning form A3-2, here is what I filled in.
Page 1 Generator Details: Just the obvious address and my existing MPAN number and my signature.
Installer Details: I put my own name in here and for accreditation I just said BSC Electronics & Electrical Engineering and then a repeat of the contact details and my signature again
Page 2 Installation Details: Again my address and postcode followed by a description of the locations of installation and isolator(s). In my case "Adjacent to existing DNO cut out fuse and smart meter in understairs cupboard accessed via downstairs dining hall" and "Approximately 45cm above DNO cut out fuse, labelled clearly as "INVERTER AC ISOLATOR" respectively.
Summary details of Power Generating Modules: This is just as you'd expect including the 4.4kW in the PH1 box and Power Factor of 1. You'll need the appropriate ENA reference number for your inverter and the install date.
Page 3 Commissioning Checks: I circled YES for all the first seven questions and then No, Yes, No for the second section titled "Information to be enclosed". The No's were for the Standard Application Form question and the EREC G100 question.
On page 4 I circled all the YES's and gave "Hybrid Inverter 1" as the reference or name. I made no additional comments or observations.
On page 5 I just signed and printed my name and put in the date. I put "N/A" as the company name and position.
HTH
FWIW I did my own installation under a Building Notice and the inspector did not ask to see any test results before passing it as fit. His main criterion seemed to be the neatness of the wiring. Certainly I did not get the impression he was familiar with battery systems or the requirements for installing them.
I did not use an MFT - but polarity, earth continuity etc can be checked using an ordinary multimeter and socket tester. The relay tests carried out on start-up by the Multi itself are also quite stringent.
Earth electrode impedance was tested (with appropriate safety precautions) by allowing a known small leakage current through a 60W light bulb and measuring the potential rise vs a reference electrode metres away. If you do not undertand or like this method do not try it yourself!
BTW great result with Octopus @Craig Chamberlain, would you like to apply your talent to cracking the stranglehold MCS also has on the heat pump market? They have a monopoly on deemed planning consent, so the need for express planning permission is a major obstacle for DIY installs there.
I'm based in Scotland where the rules are a bit different and we don't have Part P etc. As far as I can determine, it's fine to work on your owndomestic electrics provided it's not a block of flats or several other classes of building. It also has to be compliant with BS7671 and so you take that responsibility on your shoulders regardless.
My intention is to get a full EICR done by a reputable electrician once my wiring is stable just as a second pair of eyes and to catch anything that I might have misunderstood or got wrong completely. The had part will be finding a good electrician who is willing to go a bit deeper than your average EICR, and who is familiar with PV and battery systems.
I agree, an MFT isn't essential other than maybe for testing RCD device trip times and leakage currents, but it is very convenient. I only intended to use mine for the installation and then sell it on, but I've decided to just keep hold of it as I have got in the habit of just testing anything I touch.
Your electrode leakage method is perfectly valid. In fact I think my MFT permits a current of up to 24A to flow when doing earth fault impedance tests. That would certainly raise the voltage at the earth rod significantly which is why, as you know, it's so important to house earth rods in suitably secure enclosures.
Nope your assumption is not wrong at least down my side, wired my garage in my old house and got a spark to write a report for building control and he was saying the electrician has put connect to sub main what does he mean, hhhhhhm so I take it he knew exactly what all the reading on the report ment! Lol. Like you guys DIY allows flexibility and the time to complete it how you want it and also save a good portion with labour, I’m just building a box to warm the batteries up when I get them as they are in the garage un-heated. I didn’t have the tester or know the light bulb method so I got the rods tested and the mains power moved to the garage by sparks and completed the rest, as for testing the DNO is happy for me to complete it and submit the commission form once I get the batteries that’s my first job getting that submitted.
<You'd think it would make more sense for them to commission an electrician to do the inspection for them.>
Just to add they vary tremendously. For a house in Cambridge the LA did exactly that, they subcontracted inspection to a one-man band who was knowledgeable and thorough (at least for a small house extension). He even managed to find and unscrew the one light switch where I had failed to put coloured sleeving on the cores of the switch drop cable.
Prior to that they subcontracted to SSE who sent a gang of two to inspect my newly-built garage, they were useless and insisted that I could not have 3 13A sockets wired radially off a single 16A breaker using 2.5 cable so I just left this inspection outstanding until the later man came, who passed it.
Even earlier they sent their own inspectors allocated by area - so I got someone who specialised in drains. His only useful advice was to run the 2.5 cable to the garage along under the arris rail on the fence so there would be a little protection from the sun. No mention of SWA which it really should have been!
Some big new for this: Octopus (officially) aren't going to insist on MCS certified install anymore.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr4KODtHOKs
If you message octopus about it they will send you the link to the waiting list. Or at least that’s what they were doing.
Have now requested elevation of my complaint challenging Octopus policy, as its not a requirement in other countries that Octopus do business in. Also believe things should be looked at by a case by case basis, and not adherence to a non legal policy cert.
Can I suggest everyone in same boat do the same as most certainly as soon as the required 8 weeks is up I will be taking my issue to the energy ombudsman.
Companies don't like customers doing that as they are automatically billed £500 per complaint regardless how resolved. Also I believe our case is a very strong one.
One point I've bought up, although I fully accept there are many brilliant MCS certified companies out there, you only need 1 employee to be the MCS rep, and the others get the cert off his back, so an unscrupulous company could employ half dozen untrained guys to do the work and he just turns up at the end to collect the check and give over the £36 pound MCS cert.
The official line is still non-MCS is a trial and outside of the trail you need MCS. They are within their rights to require it, so not sure what the Ombudsman is going to do tbh.
I think you'd be better off Tweeting Octopus and Greg Jackson and asking if someone can look at what's going on.
FWIW mine has gone through now and I've had my first payment, and on Intelligent and Octopus Outgoing so getting 15p/kWh!
I applied quite a while back but don't own an EV, which some indicate is the preferred criteria. However they try to fob you off if you havnt got a MCS cert saying you cannot get an export payment from them. I have an official complaint running.
The reason I'm going to take them to the ombudsman is I believe they have breached their own terms and conditions namely sections 5.5 to 5.9 they have not been informing customers that they can get an export licence and be paid for it. I have full DNO approval and plenty of information that my install exceeds current MCS standards.
https://octopus.energy/policies/export-tariffs-terms-conditions/
Urge everyone who also gets turned down to take them on.
I agree with @Xtopher and @Gazza in that persistent persuasion is much more likely to succeed than any "ombudsman". Have you ever met anyone who said, "oh, I'm an ombudsman"? I imagine it's just a damage limitation committee.
I got my non-MCS export tariff by cc'ing Greg Jackson and his CEO of net zero in an email with Octopus support where I pointed out the hypocrisy of promoting renewable energy while denying people like me with excess solar energy (in Summer) the ability to share that energy.
Here is the text of my reply to Octopus:
Thanks for getting back to me so promptly.
As you can imagine, that’s not the answer I was hoping for, especially from a company like Octopus who pride themselves on an innovative approach to domestic renewables.
I’m sure you’re aware that there is no legislative requirement for MCS certification and my DNO has already provided an export MPAN and are completely happy with my installation which also meets BS7671 electrical regulations and has been running successfully for several months.
So it is purely an Octopus policy decision not to grant an export tariff to customers like myself. I find this perplexing when I read in the news that coal power stations are being fired up because there is not enough grid capacity to power air conditioning systems in the summer when people like me could export solar energy to support such loads. Seems like a massive missed opportunity to me!
MCS made sense when FIT tariffs were introduced to kick-start the immature solar generation industry but these days it adds no value beyond what the DNOs and BS7671 already cover.
Time for a rethink I would say, and I know there are many who feel the same. Why not introduce an inspection scheme for non-MCS installations to establish if they are fit for purpose?
I read in a Guardian article that CEO Greg Jackson enjoys a small bath tub because it is efficient and quick to fill. If I can’t do anything more productive with my excess solar energy then I might as well buy a large hot tub and use the energy to heat it!
I reckon it was the hot tub comment that did it! What do you think? :D
I suggest rather than p*ss them off with a complaint, write to them on Twitter and tag Greg Jackson and point out you enquired some time ago and see if you can jump the queue to get on the trial.
I got in the first wave of the trial because I had enquired in the past and hassled Greg Jackson for some time on it, but always being polite.
Good luck.
Good advice. I think level headed persuasion is the way forward. These are extracts from the export T&C:-
5.7 If you are unable to provide the certification described in clause 5.5 above, you will need to provide us with any information about your installation that we may request. We reserve the right to refuse you access to the Export Tariff in circumstances where we haven’t been provided with sufficient information about the installation of the generation asset or where we are not satisfied as to the safety, integrity or otherwise of the installation.
5.8 Where you are unable to provide MCS or equivalent certification under clause 5.5, you confirm that you are satisfied that the generation asset has been installed by a competent professional and meets all required industry standards and guidelines. Octopus accepts no liability for any loss, damage or injury resulting from the installation.
Yes I've already sent Greg a letter a good few weeks ago but had no reply. Did hear that Octopus were prioritising new customers on the trial. Hope thats not the case. I originally asked for export over 4 months ago now, and as polite as I could, but when you get flatly refused and then find that there is most certainly scope within the export terms and conditions 5.7 and 5.8 above, it does make me wonder whether their own staff are aware of these latest AUG23 changes, and were still fobbing customers off on the previous terms.
Regardless I'm still voluntary exporting fully legal brown energy as I believe its the right thing to do, just that they wont currently pay me for it, but prepared for a long battle if that what it takes.
Don't actually want to take this course of action, as I think the company is very good indeed, but not finding many ways forward currently.
Sent him an actual physical letter? or DM on Twitter? Its best to just Tweet, tagging him and Octopus in it, that gets best visibility.
And no one is questioning whether then CAN allow non-MCS export, they clearly can, but they don't HAVE to give it to you. So you have to play on their rules. The official line is still you need MCS unless you are on the non-MCS trial. Admittedly some customer service reps are better switched on than others, and they dont all know about the trial or the waiting list. If you get a particularly savvy one via Twitter, you might just the the email to join the next day!
Did you ever sign up to the waiting list - https://octopus.typeform.com/to/UAbK9bRq
Believe by the wording they are not taking on for the trial anymore. Please see latest reply today with their three suggestions.
1. I've already applied ages ago but clearly didnt meet criteria
2. dont believe option 2 is possible as its against MCS rules.
3. Seems the only way to go.
Hey there XXXX,
Thanks for getting in touch, I hope you're well?
My apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I have been discussing your account with the site lead for complaints.
Right now the trial is not guaranteed to be continued, as it dependent on the result to the current trials results. But, if the trial does not continue then we won't contact you to let you know that the trail is not going ahead.
I want to let you know you are not been discriminated against, an MCS is a requirement with most, if not all, suppliers and these requirements are for every customer.
The three options you have moving forward are:
My apologies, as mentioned in all my interactions with you, we need 2 pieces of documentation. Without having both, you are not eligible to move to an export tariff with us.
I hope this helps but please don't hesitate to get in touch if you have any other questions or queries!
Love and Power
Burls
@Octopus Energy
Hi Craig,
The two pieces of documentation is the DNO approval which I've got and an MCS cert which is the whole issue anyway. I have both a G98 and a G99.
Already have had a sparky complete the connections for me to make it fully legal and have receipts to prove it, along with additional safety checks required for G99 (which most installs don't get).
Option 2 as they clearly know is also impossible, as by MCS guidelines they have to complete every bit of the install, which in my case is 2 arrays on two separate roofs (one at height). Also being quite honest as I actually built myself every truss brick and tile on the structure it stands on is a total waste of time and money. That's saying they would have to completely remove and identically install again.
Octopus initially told me it was only because I wasn't audited that they wouldn't accept me
as per the british standard guidelines, but as I worked for a period as a refinery safety auditor, I constructed an independent audit. Now they moved the goal posts back to "no cert, no connection" .
Actually apart from offering a nice brown envelope for a cert (which they are in a way suggesting), I'm pretty stuck, hence asking for help or suggestions on here. (Also really appreciate everyone's input )
Actually believe they have had some kickback from the MCS body over this, as wording on a few of the letters I've had from Octopus is certainly not pushing that this will become mainstay. Suspect we wont see another trial.
Even with the trial £250 sign up fee, that's peanuts to the amount they are getting paid for pre arranged customer referrals for solar installs which I've been informed is £500-£2000 per customer, using of course fully MCS certified and pre deal arranged companies.
That what's really behind all the smoke and mirrors...greed, and the costs are being passed to the customer which is why many quotes I've examined for others hold hidden £5-6000 profits per install dependant on installation size.
They are very busy atm, I've heard they're just about (or have) onboarded another 1000 Zappi owners onto the Zappi x Intelligent trial (which I'm also on from the first wave).
Seriously, I've always had things done a lot quicker by Tweeting Greg and OE. From this SEG trial, to Zappi x IO (some help from MyEnergi's Dr Chris), to getting my meter replaced quicker when it broke, Twitter is the way to go. Even a friend, who has been struggling for months to get a smart meter install, got a date a few days after contacting them on Twitter.
Greg Jackson has always been one for a challenge and is not averse to disruption. It is going to take longer than we all hoped to remove the MCS noose I am afraid, but I still believe it will happen. Distributed production is the way forward rather than centralised grid to meet our future needs. The Government also needs this to happen quicker to preserve any credibility. They have shot themselves in the foot by creating this quango.
Well there's a suprise! I have been following this thread with interest since it began.. I have a small (Multiplus-II 48/3000/35-32GX) ESS system on AC IN, that has been running brilliantly for over a year. I applied for DNO G98 at the same time I was installing it (super easy with UK Power Networks SmartConnect). Originally I was not bothered about feed-in tariff and of course knew that MCS was never going to happen for my self-install... However, my summer production was way over what I could use, or store, and also a couple of holiday periods (away from home) made me think ... what a waste!!
I do believe @Craig Chamberlain that, despite your modesty, the continual chipping away at Octopus (and Greg..lol) has made a difference.
Also, @solar sam, I can confirm that the "trial" is still in progress... no idea how the pecking order is established, or if they literally are pulling names out of a hat!!? I have sent one or two emails taking pain to be polite and almost obsequiously respecting their right of refusal, despite the recent change in Export T&Cs.
So, today I received an email inviting me to join the trial... I did make a cheeky application a while ago for Fixed Outgoing tariff, this of course brings up a "box" to fill in your MCS number OR upload the certificate. If you don't do either of those then the application aborts. Here's the thing, as long as you upload "something" you get to the end of the form, so I just entered another copy of the DNO G98 . I thought that someone would eventually work that out and throw up a flag....lol !! It did... resulting in an email stating that they needed the MCS, but importantly it also had a link to sign up for the Non-MCS trial, which I did... for the second time since it has been running....
For those that are still waiting... don't give up hope. Patience and polite, gentle prodding seem to have paid off... oh, and I will never know the significance, but, the last email I sent I did as Craig suggested and cc'd Greg :)
Yeah, I also took the "politely persuasive with a touch of humour" approach rather than trying to shout the odds in a situation where I didn't really have any leverage. It's their game and they make up the rules after all. Yes there are regulators but they are very much a last resort and are highly unlikely to get involved in this non-MCS thing when all(?) the other energy suppliers still require blanket MCS certification.
It's the time of year where I'm having to charge the batteries up in my "Go" window to ensure I get through the next day, but it's good to know that if I do import too much energy overnight and I get more solar the next day than expected, the price difference between off-peak import (9p) and export (8p) is only 1p. Yes there are also efficiency losses so it's a bit more than that, but this helps to reduce the pain of underestimating the solar forecast. Right now at 3pm I have pushed 1.7kWh to the grid, and am still pushing 2.8kW, because the solar forecast last night was for 14kWh of solar today and I've already captured 14.1kW with another 3.1kWh estimated before the end of the day.
I hope the process goes smoothly for you. Enjoy!
Great news for you Gazza. Also I've just received an e-mail also inviting me to join the trial.
That's a pretty big thing for me, as going on very limited data, as my full system has only been running a couple of months I could have 4M watt/hr of green power available to export per annum.
Have also identified a couple of ways to increase yields further with minor investment, but that's on hold until I start getting paid. (I'm currently exporting by choice for free, but that's my decision as think its the right thing to do).
Application seems pretty straightforward, only snag I;ve got to iron out is the "submit building control cert". That's because I was previously informed that I don't need one as its classed as "permitted development".
So will follow that one up first. Don't mind the fee as already £500 in credit now due to solar savings. So well done Gazza, pls keep in touch with progress and any snags.
It is a bit confusing as they also ask for Electrical Installation Certificate (ie NIC EIC NAPIT)... I thought that was the Part P?
I would ask them to clear it up as you dont need building regs over and above Part P which is the electric certificate AFAIK.
seems on the form unless you put something in, you cannot progress. Expect a lot of DIY solar enthusiasts are going to have issues with these like I did , thinking "great, just sign the waiver, I've got full DNO permission pay the £250 and I'm in. Many had had sparkies connect up for favours like I did, without getting this or that document proving their competence. All I've got is an official receipt saying "Test solar set up and complete", and for a low mates rates fee. (£100 and thats because he also upgraded the MCB for solar specs). Might have exchanged one higher level of bureaucracy for a few smaller ones. However with the smaller ones they are achievable if we haven't got them yet (which is me)..plus I'm really pleased to have plenty of brilliant help from the participants on this forum.
On the issue of building regs approval req, there are some regulation regarding solar that if you exceed them it then falls into building approval req. for example.
Panels higher than the ridgeline.
Panels overhanging roof by a certain amount.
Panels on buildings that are grade 2 listed road facing.
Visible panels from road in special locations like where all building in an areas where the majority are listed.
certain heritage sites and locations.
Will follow up on this as I think they may be after two separate documents . Perhaps we can share findings here. Can also share links for others to potentially join or aid those doing it later on.
Reason is, if you read the small print and after paying the £250 fee, if they then reject you after they are only going to re-in burse a much smaller amount back.
Also due to the time of year, and knowing that it will take a few weeks anyway, we have missed our main solar export opportunity for this year, so do have time to clarify exactly what they require and get everything sorted if its not exactly right.
Just an update,
1st part is the DNO acceptance.
2nd part is NICEIC/Napit cert required.
3. 3rd part below.
Just some clarification on the requirements for the trial and installations in general as Ive been speaking to the buildings control inspector.
If an install is a self install they have to come around and complete a site inspection (wont be for free), they will then give you a building regulations cert which meets the third part requirement .
Each part is quite achievable but not free, Ive got the 1st, receipt for work for second but no cert yet and nothing on the 3rd part.
Found building control dept very helpful.
How's things progressing with you guys.
Yes Gazza, its moving from level of bureaucracy to a couple of lower ones. However if in the future you wanted to sell it will most certainly come up. Good friend recently sold his house and one third of the questionnaire the buyers solicitors forwarded were about his solar system.
Getting the required certs is achievable, but I'd wager it will cost me £700-£900 in fees just to do so, without any change. However think its important to look at the long game here, and just going by last months figs so probably off a bit, I recon I could export about 4K K/Wt hrs per year, which could be £600 income. So that's attractive payback by any standard, and also makes the system fully legal from a property resale and hence investment standpoint.
Don't know if you have a partner but my other half wouldn't know what to do if I was brown bread so worth sorting it properly.
I'm currently exporting for free by choice.
I thought the distance from boundary was 2 mtrs, and agree it would be PITA (worked that one out), to move it. Ive also got a couple of extra panels attached, as even the best ones now cost £85 for a 420W one (trade price), so cheap as chips compared to what they were, Might be worth you putting up another array...then forgetting about the other for a while...Great for off season yields... Keep that inverter at max (or tuck in a small slave one as well).
I've also, a bit tongue in cheek sent notes to a couple of small MCS qualified installers asking would they like some money for an inspection and a cert (without any guarantees) . also letting them know otherwise I'm going down the trial route for sure, but would rather reward local tradesmen.
Expect they will say no.
That would probably work for getting the buildings cert for you Gazza. Seems every area has a different price tag for a buildings control cert from £35 to £500, depending on what's being looked at.
The buildings control officer I spoke to seemed more concerned whether the structure was study enough. I'm lucky there as both my arrays built on structures that meet current building regs, however I can imagine and also know of a good friend who's put them on his shed roof, so in similar position that a large number of very good DIY installs might sit on sheds that were not designed for the load panels generate of approx. 20kg per panel.
Bet lots of self installers will fall foul of this one, because its clear that if say a wooden shed roof gives way supporting a live system fire is a very real possibility.
So although I fumed at the thought of paying hundreds for an inspector just to turn up and I hope just sign it off after viewing, they don't know what the supporting structure is like..hence the ruling.
Getting a few other questions ready as well, like best location for a heat pump and whether planning also req, also what to do about a large asbestos ex water tank in attic, might as well get my moneys worth and I've found them very helpful in the past when doing other house extensions, and their experience invaluable.
just been quoted £345 fee for building control permission, have queried whether this includes the actual cert. Awaiting reply on that one.
So currently have the non returnable Octopus £250 fee plus this one giving me £595, plus still need the electrical cert as I've only got a receipt currently. All to get 15p per KW/hr. UK bureaucracy is a bit of a joke compared to other countries.
I did try some local MCS installers and they told me they would love to help but cannot due to MSC rules, even for a tasty cash offer. So what Octopus suggested to me cannot be achieved.
I feel incredibly lucky that I got to surf the initial wave before the bureaucracy descended but you know what? Even if I had to pay the Octopus fee and potentially other fees, I would probably have done it just to put one over on that MCS racket!
Also, bear in mind that although it might be just 15p/kWh just now, there might be higher export tariffs on the horizon. When I got my export tariff it was 4.1p/kWh but that was replaced automatically with 8p/kWh and if I switch to Intelligent Octopus I can get 15p/kWh so the landscape does change. Worst case maybe you break even or lose a few pounds but best case you might do better than expected. I don’t know your financial situation but if you can stay the course then I would encourage you to do so.
Saw this a few weeks ago. Thought I'd check in to see how those brave enough to go first are getting on. Expensive and a lot of hoops to jump through, but I suppose it's at least doable, albeit for a price. Better than the previous MCS monopoly.
Not sure I'll pull the trigger though. I'd have to export 6 months worth of electricity generated just to break even.
I actually think that's not bad, because that way everything will be above board and recognised.
Just had notification that electricity prices are rising again in Jan, this slight dip we had didn't last long.
As a slight aside, and looking forwards to when I actually get paid for what I'm currently giving away for free
I've got a couple of Ideas how to export and generate more power from my current set up,
didn't warrant it before, however if going to be paid for green power I should optimise it.
will start another thread about it as looking for advice, as I know most of the posters on here know much more than myself.
Do love the Saving Sessions, shame that they canned the In Day Adjustment that worked so well last year (if you know, you know lol).
There's actually been 4 sessions so far, 2 test sessions and 2 live sessions. There should be 12 test sessions, 6 before the New Year and another 6 after the new year. The ones before the New Year are guaranteed to be £3000/mWh to the supplier, which for Octopus customers typically means £2.25/kWh to use (suppliers take a cut). Test sessions after New Year aren't guaranteed a certain rate, it depends how the testing goes. Test also arent always open to all suppliers, last year Octopus didnt take part in a few. However there should be a few live sessions (we've had 2) where they pay more, and the shorter the notice, the higher the bids will be.
So here are my results so far:
https://savingsessions.streamlit.app/
You can work you own out here but putting your API key in. Don't worry it completely safe, run by a guy on the OE forums. Just need to make sure you can see you consumption in the OE app first, it pulls the data from Octopus' APIs.
The Octo-Aid app also has a function to work this out now too.
Thanks for the link but do you realise your own API Key is embedded in the link?
My results are:
Which is pretty decent. I must have missed the first one.
I am going for it. Explained to my local new forest planning department (whose stated objective is to promote better homes with better efficiency), that their high cost for an unenforceable (on their part as I have a good case why my solar is within permitted development), that I only want a buildig control cert to enable my participation so I can export more green electric to help the community, and as being a pensioner I'd rather save it for home heating than pay a fee that I feel is excessive for very little. Pointed out that it sort of goes against their own policy.
So they have now agreed and reduced the fee by £75, and should be finished next week.
Also spoke to my sparky whos going to give me a cert next week, (small cost).
Already have DNO, so joining the trial in total will cost me £525 in total, but I will have certs for all aspects of my DIY solar, which does add value to property.
Fag packet calcs point at about a 12 month payback just on current payments for export.
Have already highlighted a few ways I could increase my production further with a couple of optimisers and perhaps a second very mini inverter to distribute even more green energy now I have the prospect at least of being paid for it, as I currently choose to give it away for free.
Watch this space.
Pls keep us posted.
I'm currently trying to switch from Octopus Go to Intelligent Octopus Go but I keep getting an error in the app. Octopus support are being a bit slow at responding to my email which is disappointing. Looking forward to getting 15p/kWh for export although I probably won't benefit that much until April or May 2024.
So my application for the Octopus trial went in today.
Cost to be was
Solar electrical checks and cert £40
Building regs compliance inspection and cert £270 (retrospective)
Trial management fee £250
So total is £560,tad more than I initially believed but the certs are essential if selling property.
Did say it will "take a couple of weeks", that's great, as I believe it was months when scheme started.
Suspect some self installers will be put off by the inconvenience of getting it all sorted, but I'm actually glad I've bought my system up to recognised standards in way of paperwork.
The wait as far as I've been able to tell, is mostly down to how long it takes your DNO to issue the export MPAN (and I guess how busy OE are right now). It took me pretty much bob on two weeks to get on, and about a week of that was them getting the MPAN.
those export payment amounts are stunning for just 6 kw exported. almost worth getting more batteries if scheme continues
Just had the e-mail....now being paid for exports with octopus on outgoing at 15p/kw/hr.
On the day when the sun is lowest its all getting better from today.
Many thanks for all the excellent help from the fellow solar enthusiasts here. Going to optimise my system now.
anyone like to chat alanclark_1@hotmail.com
See below.
, your export electricity meter is set up and your new export rates are now live. There's a couple of things we need you to do for your account to run smoothly and save you a lot of time later on.
1. Add your bank details to your Octopus account (if you don't already have a Direct Debit set up): Your export payments will be added to your online Octopus account but if you ever want to withdraw your account balance, we will need your bank details set up.
2. Send us your export meter reading and a photo of the meter: You can send them back to us by replying to this email. We will credit your online account everytime you give us a reading.
Anyway, the point of my post was that Octopus were happy with my Part P so I am now receiving export payments! Thanks for everyone's help along the way.
It's kind of ironic that you got that email on the shortest day of the year but to be honest I think that's quite nice because, as you say, the only way is UP for the next 6 months at least. And hopefully we might see energy costs coming down at the same time.
Look out for the Octopus Saving Sessions and see how much of those extra expenses you can recoup before the end of the winter. I've already made £70 or so just from a handful of sessions.
Good luck,
Craig.
So far out of the 6 test sessions and 2 live sessions I've made over £100.
Cracking performance xtopher, do you just tweak the battery to export, or wind up that great big smoking diesel jenny running on used chip fat, mixed with used engine oil. Ive just signed up to 30 min billing as well. so will be good to go in a few weeks, once data collected.
The saving sessions are usually around dinner time just as my wife gets home from work, and it's not always been possible for me to avoid doing some amount of cooking during the sessions so I've definitely not been going to any particular lengths to maximise the returns. Ideally you'd shut everything down including fridges and freezers as they can easily stay cold for 60-90 mins. You'd want to leave the TVs off too and go out for take-away food instead of cooking, but I've decided I'm not going to be a slave to saving sessions. I just did a quick calculation and I'm averaging 83% of my theoretical 4.4kW export during those 5 sessions. Not bad for basically no effort.
@Craig Chamberlain how do I do this as I have to be at home connected to the local network to change the grid set point any help regarding this? I’ve not touched node red as I haven’t got a clue what to do and how to get it on the cerbo.
EDIT scratch the above I’ve got it in the Cerbo GX I’ve got my API key just need to know how to get it all in node red, with if this than that flow in node red ie stop discharge at 30% when it’s something like 1700 -1800 and stop at 40% when the hours are 1600 -1700.
Hey @daza
I was also thinking about SoC limits but actually I think it makes economic sense to just run the batteries right down to the minimum SoC if there is a saving session. The reward for the saving session is a good amount higher than even the peak rate electricity cost.
That said, what you don't want to do is expend your batteries before the end of the session only to then consume grid energy to run the base load for the house. The ideal scenario would be to set a grid setpoint which caused the batteries to hit minimum SoC just as the session ended but I'm going to keep it simple for now and just export at maximum during the session. The flow I'm using also sends me a notification so I will know not to use high loads during that period. This is it:
https://flows.nodered.org/flow/83a2ff80d99599599def737197829b7e
Not fully tested yet as I need to wait for the next saving session but I'm fairly confident it will work as expected.
Cheers,
Craig.
Really didn't want to comeback to NodeRed but looks like ill have to get familiar with it, Ok ive done the push over account didn't even know i had to as it didn't mention anything so it stands to reason I'm missing something else as the deployment shows errors is there anything else i have to do? accounts and api key are in the GraphQL am i supposed to do the sub flow as well ie set the API key in that to and also the account in run GraphQL as i thought this is optional as a default?
The workspace contains some nodes that are not properly configured:
Are you sure you want to deploy?
Hi @Daza , I've not got a lot of time just now to go into a lot of detail but let me post a few screenshots of my setup and maybe you can see what is missing.
Easiest thing is to just enter your API key and account number into BOTH of the purple "Octopus Energy GraphQL" nodes. (ie. double click them and enter the details then click done). You can enter it as a default in the sub-flow but that's not necessary.
I presume you have entered your Pushover User key and API token into the "pushover" node?
I think I left everything else as it came when I installed the flow except for the two change nodes "Grid Setpoint xxxW" and the subsequent Victron "Venus Settings" node. Here are three screenshots of those:
Lastly, here are the packages I have installed. You don't need the dynamic ESS one and you can see it's not "in use". You will need the @victronenergy/node-red-contrib-victron one though. You also need the cron-plus one if you don't have it already.
HTH, let me know how you get on
ps. I should say that I've not been able to actually test this yet as we've not had any saving sessions since I set it up. I have tested bits of it though so I'm pretty confident it should work.
Thank you but yeah I don’t think im doing it right I’ve installed the packages, but still getting the errors from Kraken Token and graphql even though I put onto account number and the api key
Yeah for the PushOver I put my key and generated an api key so I assume thats all I need to do for that?
And I don’t seem to be connected like you on Venus settings.
EDIT: So no more errors regarding the two items I deleted the whole thing and started again with importing it, but don’t think it’s working as no update on the 30min check and nothing saying connected on the Venus settings
Hey mate thank you yes I did but noticed the server keeps disconnecting so I switched to chrome and bam graphQL succes schedule today Venus connected it’s all good thumbs up I can’t believe it’s the browser this has been driving me mad! Thank you
That's odd as it's Safari I use on my Mac to work with Node-RED. Anyway, glad you are getting somewhere. :)
That said, sometimes I do have a need to reload the node-RED page as it gets into some weird state. But I don't think that's a Safari issue so much as a Node-RED issue.
As with Craig, its all from the MPII, no supplementary generation. I've got Home Assistant running it all with Node Red. HA can pick up when Saving Sessions are available, auto enrol me, and when they happen, it will set grid setpoint to -5000w to force export the batteries.
As I live on my own, I usually head down the climbing wall (that I'm a annual member of, so no extra cost) to kill the time. Double benefit then, I need to charge the EV up the next day and usually plug it in outside of the IO Go off peak to get a few more hours cheap rate for house and heating! I usually see maybe 4.1-4.2kW export during the session. Interesting that going flat out seems to put a few hundred watts more load on the non-critical load circuit, which I assume is the inverter using extra power.
Great setup! Nice to see a fellow climber in here too. I work at UKClimbing :)
Just wrapping up my campaign to be paid for exports, I yesterday withdrew my complaint against Octopus changing it to "highly satisfied customer", Also wrote quite a large review for them demonstrating how Octopus energy are improving public safety by going down this path to allowing paid exports once customers obtain the required " third party signoffs", which actually exceeds current MCS standards and enables customers a route to paid exports while correcting any deficiencies found.
Doing research we are just about to witness another crash in prices for solar and most importantly battery storage. The latter one is one where this route to export payments will be important as we see an increase in battery only systems. Reports are pointing to another 50% reduction.
I can currently purchase a 550W panel for £90, or a 410W one for £76 trade, or a 4.8 KW pylontec battery for £1074
Believe when we see that happening most green enthusiasts like us will increase our storage capacity further, and unlikely to hire a contractor to do it for us. just so many possibilities once you get serious storage capacity.
These saving sessions are just the forerunners to this happening and will open up loads more opportunity when it happens.
When Sodium-ion cells start to get mass produced, the battery prices are gonna be even more inviting.
