question

I think you better install a second Orion instead of a second battery. You retain the full power of the Orion if the battery is above 20°C and the Orion does not get warmer than 25°C. You can place a fan to keep the Orion cool. Did you use 16mm2 cables for the Orion and if you place a second one, it must also have a separate 16mm2 cable. Your alternator must be able to supply at least 2 times the total power of the Orions. If an Orion supplies 30A, it takes 34A from your alternator.

Then checkout battery temp (on the app) when you're charging with a soc that normally gives bulkfase ... under 20°C the Orion goes after 2 minutes in absorption (checkout on the app) and power drop down ...

Thanks for your reply. The temp is under 20°c how do I prevent it from going into absorption mode? When I look at the graph and first screen it says bulk.

Lastly the cable should be okay, it’s what Victron recommend in the manual. I’ll try add some pics. The iPhone web portal isn’t that good.

@T3Z-GB

Have you considered adding solar to your Crafter? If that's an option, it certainly will help to charge your battery, dependent on space you have on the roof top.

Adding another Orion-Tr Smart in parallel is also a good idea and will double your charge current, which theoretically could charge a single 160Ah lithium within 3 hours from zero to full. Should be ok also if you have a 2nd battery in parallel for 320Ah.

If shore power charging from AC is an option, take a look at either a MultiPlus inverter/charger in the same power range like your Phoenix Smart Inverter or a Phoenix Smart Charger IP43 with 50A.

All of the above can be mixed up together and run simultaneously to boost your charge power.

I have the same 160Ah Victron battery as you and 2 Orions 12/12/30 isolated with each a duo cable of 16mm2 and I have the same problem. If my battery is above 20°C, everything works correctly and I charge continuously with 60A. Under 20°C is continuously 10A less ...

@T3Z-GB , in wich country you travel with your camper, whats the outsite temp ?

I'm Belgian and for the moment I travel with my camper in the south of France and everything works fine. When I'm in Belgium in wintertime it's bingo ... less charging !

@T3Z-GB, I have also experienced when the engine stop detection of the Orion is switched off in the app and instead the remote is used with the ignition switch, the charging current is also slightly higher. But again, once the Orion itself rises above 25°C, the current drops to 28.xxA instead of 30A. This is also stated on the data sheet.

Here my settings for the Orions ...

Function charger/input voltage lock 10.0V-10.1 V/User defined/absorption 14.20V/Float 13.50V/max Bulktime 10h0m/re-bulk offset 0.10V/Fixed absorption time 1h0m/Motorstopdetection off, remote is used for on-off

@Takamine I think you are 100% right with the temp Issues, just re read the manual and it says at over 25°C it can produce 430wh so there most likely is issues under 20°C.

Thanks for the settings, iv adjusted mine along with my expectations during the colder months.

Thanks for the help @Takamine

@Takamine looks like another problem , input voltage 14.6 output voltage 13.4 while charging at 310w battery temp 15°C I though the lithium needed a higher voltage?

Wat is the Soc of the battery. And yes, under the 20°C means problems

@Takamine it’s at 15% now

19.8 amps at 264wh now. Can’t be right

The charge voltage in the bulkfase is not so important, the current is more important. 13.4V is oke, 310W is 23.13A. If the battery was above the 20 degrees it probably works perfect and give you the current from 360W - 400W depending on the temperatur of the Orion.

Okay understand now. Thanks again for all your help.

Probably your Orion is in absorption on the app, but that is'nt correct ! Otherwise the current must increase very faster to 8A to 9A

I think, make first a test with a battery above 20 degrees before you change anything

Will do, by the way how do you switch off both Orions from your BMS in case of over current? Will the one cable from the BMS switch off both on the H terminal if I join the wires ? Not that I have that problem at the moment.

Can someone share some VictronConnect screen images or screen recordings when the Smart Orion is believed to not be charging at full power. Along with a screen image of the settings?

@T3Z-GB , I use a SmallBms. There are two 100A Smart Battery Protects. One in the load and one in the consumption, both are controlled by the SmallBms

Let's get back to basics.

The charger is a 360W unit specified as 30A continuous at nominal output voltage (12V).

360W at absorption voltage of 14.2V is very close to 25A.

The initial 30A current is the in built ability to supply more than the rated value for short periods.

The charger is performing correctly according to specifications. As @Stefanie has said repeatedly, temperature has NOTHING to do with this situation. It's simply the load is higher than the charger can replenish.

@T3Z-GB suggest you do a rough electrical audit. Based on power consumed. My gut feel is that a second Orion will, as @Stefanie said, be the correct answer. Base charger capacity on usage and desired recharge time, bearing in mind alternator capacity. If you wish to add a second battery for extended capacity, no issues, but expect longer charge times.

I'm going to accept this answer to get it to the top so others reading the thread aren't mislead by the incorrect temperature comments.

@kevgermany

Thanks for clarifying, can I assume you are saying I need to set the absorption voltage from 13.5 to 14.2?

Apologies it is set to 14.2 so I don’t understand then why it’s charging at absorption but indicating Bulk charge? Whilst the output from the Orion is 13.5v ?

Fantastic. Great explanation thank you. I think this is resolved now.

@kevgermany ... I have one more question. How do you explain that with a SoC of 50%, a consumption of 0.4A, a 160Ah Lithium battery temperature of less than 20°C that my two Orions 12/12/30 after approximately 2 minutes of charging switch into absorption charge, showed bij the app. But you don't see the current drop and the charging voltage is only 13.80V en don't rise. Above a battery temperature of 20°C this does not happen and I also see a lower charging voltage of 13.70V that rise at that time. When the absorption charge is reached, you will see 14.20V and the current drop until Float !

What would be the best way to charge if using 2 of those batteries.

@Takamine Today has been an interesting day. The car has been closed up for a few hours raising the internal temperature of the battery to 22°C and what do you know. Now I have full 29ah charge.

Sorry @kevgermany while all your information appeared to be sound I cannot agree that temperature has nothing to do with it.

As much as I love Victron products and will always purchase them. While there may not be any temperature sensors etc. it certainly does works better when warm.

Please may I also ask you from respect to the forum and myself do not just accept your answer as correct, and post, on my Q&A. While you may have the power to do it, and your theory may be correct, at the end of the day no matter what you affiliation and reward, you should never self accept your answer as the ultimate truth and correct answer

Thanks and appreciate everyone’s help with this

@T3Z-GB ... I'm glad you took the test and got results. That confirms that it is indeed the case and it probably has to do with the chemistry of the cells. It's just what I've experienced and I just wanted to tell you that, no more, no less.

I'm doing some research. I stand by my comments about the charger, power/voltage and current calcs.

Sorry, but I have to get something off my chest. Things get mixed up here. Specifically, I wrote that a certain Lithium battery in a certain soc, in combination with a certain charger, gives different charging voltages and charging currents during the Constant Current mode (bulk), depending on whether the battery temperature is below or above 20°C. The only thing I was wrong is that I THOUGHT that the battery controlled that electronically. I didn't claim it was actual ! Normally when charging a half-full (50% soc) Lithium battery, a Lithium-set charger starts in Constant Current mode with a charging voltage starts around 13.60V, and rises to the Constant Voltage mode which starts at 14.20V. Only when the 14.20V has reached the current should begin to fall, not earlier. This charging pattern don't work with a half-full Lithium battery below 20°C and especially with large currents ...

Please note that I use a translator and not everything is translated correctly !

I’m curious to know if temperature does not effect the power output, can anyone explain why if states in the manual that at 25°C the cont. output is 430w and at 40°C the cont. output is 360w?

@T3Z-GB ... I have a fan for cooling the Orions ...

Thanks you @Tom dv for the explanation, everyone here @Takamine @Stefanie @Mark @kevgermany have gone to great effort in trying to help solve this “problem” today I re routed the factory solar to the lithium and the additional 100w made a significant difference along with the battery being 23°C I managed to charge it to 70% from a 90 mile journey and being in the sunshine all day.

I have ordered an additional Orion, it arrives tomorrow, the cables and mounting location is all ready for a very quick 10 min installation tomorrow, however tomorrow night I have a 5 hour trip, so should be interesting to see how the two behave together without additional cooling.

I expect I will have 100% at the end of he journey. I’ll have to connect a second wire from the SmallBMS charge cut, to the second Orion. Hopefully that works in the event of overcharge.

I will update and let you all know how it went.

Thank you all again for all the help.