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David avatar image
David asked

Low Power/AES Mode not enabling when AC present (read on to understand ;) )

A slightly odd issue - and there is a reason why this SHOULD work I think ...

I have an EasyPlus 12/1600/70. I have AES enabled in Search Mode.
If I have the EP switched to "Inverter Only" mode, it only will enter Low Power mode when the Shore Power has no supply coming in.

  • If Shore Power is connected WHEN in Low Power mode, it will stay in Low Power until there is a demand, but when the demand goes, the EP stays in Inverting Mode.
  • If Shore Power is NOT connected, the EP will switch to Inverting from Low Power when there is a demand, but when the demand does, it WILL switch back to Low Power.


Hopefully this screenshot from VRM with annotations will help? Note that the only change made at any time on the timeline shown until 15:00 at the end was removing and putting back the AC supply. Nothing on the EP output was touched.

epaesopvrm.jpg

The EasyPlus is running firmware 492.

I want to be able to run the systems off the battery on a regular basis because I do evaluations and testing, and it is useful to be able to remotely (as opposed to going to site and pulling cable/switch) to disconnect the AC Supply to allow me to do this. But the EP not switching into Low Power/AES stops this being an accurate evaluation as it skews the results.


I am sure AES operation should not care if there is an Active AC connection or not when the EasyPlus/Multiplus is set to "Inverter Only", as "Inverter Only" is not using the AC supply in any way surely?


low power
epaesopvrm.jpg (80.7 KiB)
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6 Answers
kevgermany avatar image
kevgermany answered ·

AES is for saving inverter battery consumption. It's only operational when running off batteries. I.e. no AC input.

Inverter only means do not charge batteries. It does not mean ignore AC input.

If AC input present it will be passed straight through to output to save draining batteries. Even in inverter only mode.

Might be worth your while to add a suitable breaker between AC supply and AC in.


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David avatar image David commented ·
That is incorrect. If the Multiplus is in "Inverter Only" mode, any AC output is from the Battery, and NOT from the AC Supply.

The EasyPlus has an set of Breakers that would do what you suggest as standard, And I would use the breaker IF that is what I wanted to do.


Sorry, but please do not reply with incorrect information that will confuse others.


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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image
Matthias Lange - DE answered ·

With AC input connected the MultiPlus will always synchronize to the input voltage/frequency even if you set it to ignore it.

The MultiPlus does this to switch over faster as soon as the "ignore AC IN"-signal is deactivated.

As already mentioned the only way is to physically disconnect the AC input.

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David avatar image David commented ·
OK, it syncs to the voltage and frequency, but it does not USE the AC power, does it?


Could you explain the AES not working when the "Inverter Only" is set (which presumably activates the "ignore AC IN" signal?).

Sorry, you say "as already mentioned", but what was mentioned - the AC is used when set to "inverter only" in order to save Battery Power - is wrong! So please could you state how "inverter only" actually works.


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Matthias Lange - DE avatar image Matthias Lange - DE ♦ David commented ·

@Wildebus

"Inverter only" will ignore the AC input. It synchronizes to the AC input voltage/frequency but won't switch over.

Due to the synchronisation AES is deactivated.

To use AES you need to physically disconnect the AC input.

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David avatar image David Matthias Lange - DE ♦ commented ·

Matthais, you said "Inverter only synchronises to the AC input voltage/frequncy but won't switch over. Either you are mistaken in how it works, or it doesn't work as it is designed to.

My Multiplus is set to 230V/50Hz. My Mains AC in is also 50Hz, but it typically >240V - so I can see very easily if it is sync'ed. I attach another screenshot from VRM that shows AC in and AC out and what happens when I change from "On" to "Inverter Only".

You see very clearly the Voltages are NOT in sync

mp-switchover.png


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mp-switchover.png (62.2 KiB)
David avatar image
David answered ·

Ref the comment that ...

"Inverter only means do not charge batteries. It does not mean ignore AC input.

If AC input present it will be passed straight through to output to save draining batteries. Even in inverter only mode. "

Please explain this:

Middle Graph shows the Multiplus knows there is an AC connection present. However, as shown in the top graph, the Multiplus (Easyplus 12/1600) is set to "Inverter Only" and so is Inverting to provide AC power. And the 3rd graph shows the battery SOC droppingm and if you look carefully you will see a blip every few hours - that is the AC load kicking in.

screenshot-2022-02-20-at-20-56-58-monty-vrm-portal.png


This screenshot shows the effect more clearly as I drill in and show the current load

screenshot-2022-02-20-at-21-03-31-monty-vrm-portal.png

So if "... AC input present it will be passed straight through to output to save draining batteries. Even in inverter only mode.", how do you explain why the current load increase when AC output increases, and then drops when the AC Output drops, even though there is AC Input connected?

Hopefully someone from Victron Energy will explain what "Inverter Only" means as there is clearly some misunderstanding on that!


screenshot-2022-02-20-at-20-56-58-monty-vrm-portal.png (42.9 KiB)
screenshot-2022-02-20-at-21-03-31-monty-vrm-portal.png (47.4 KiB)
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David avatar image
David answered ·

A couple of extra Screenshots. ....

Device set to "ON" - see how the AC IN Load follows the AC OUT load on the system pretty much

mp-on.png


Compare that to the AC IN Load when the Device is set to "Inverter Only"

mp-inverteronly.png


mp-on.png (57.4 KiB)
mp-inverteronly.png (54.2 KiB)
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David avatar image
David answered ·

Some Info on this subject from the Victron Site - https://www.victronenergy.com/live/assistants:ignore_ac_input_using_the_generator_assistant?s[]=inverter&s[]=only

quote:

"Introduction

Ignoring AC input will force a Multi or Quattro into inverter-mode on certain conditions, even though there is mains or generator power available. For example to force the system to run 100% on battery and solar power.

Ignoring the AC input was first introduced on the Virtual switch tab. It is much easier to use the Virtual switch to configure this, however if you must disable the Virtual switch due to another necessary assistants then it is possible to use an alternative way. "

The above is PRECISELY what I am doing as far as I am aware? Setting the Multiplus to Mode 2 (Inverter Only) by changing the switch state virtually, thereby Ignoring the AC Input and forcing the system to 100% on battery and solar power.


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kevgermany avatar image
kevgermany answered ·

Sorry, I got it wrong.

But let's be a little more friendly. We're trying to help. But it's difficult when we get replies like yours.

Be aware that most of us do this on a voluntary basis. And that being complete and concise makes it much easier to answer your questions.

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David avatar image David commented ·
Sorry, but it is difficult when I ask a question (and have a reasonable idea of what I am doing and I think from the question that maybe is evident?) and get an answer that is clearly wrong, and then others quoting that answer which makes it even more frustrating. I am all for being helpful and have answered questions on here myself, but it is when I have experience and knowledge of the topic. If I would just be guessing, I don't tend to reply unless I also say it is a guess.

My question was very specific and it is really I think only a Victron Employee who is likely to have the answer I suspect. Sometimes a question needs context to explain the issue, otherwide the danger is that someone reads a precis, and jumps to a conclusion (e.g. "how can AES possibly work when you have Short Power plugged in?"), which is why it is important to know the reasons and maybe some background to help.


To explain WHY this issue is important to me if you are interested ...

I try out different batteries within a Victron Subsystem and part of that testing is battery life within a Victron system. So I want to use battery power to do that of course, and having AES working as it should is important to get accurate data. I have my system setup so I can change MP state from "Inverter Only" to "ON" remotely, sometimes via the Remote Control Panel, sometimes I use a Node-Red command and change state based on the Battery SOC on one of the 3 BMVs in the setup so I can automate repeated Load Test and Run Times, and having an automatic recharge once the battery hits a low SOC by changing MP State to ON; and then when at a high SOC, change MP State again back to Inverter Only, and repeat this however many times I like for this testing. This would not be doable in an automated way by having to flip breakers - One of the supposed advantages of the Victron kit is the remote controllability, and this has proved to be the case generally. But this bug has spoilt it and taken away what to me is an important feature that I am pretty sure used to work in the past on this MP and previous ones I have had.


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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ David commented ·

@Wildebus

While this is a Victron Community it is predominantly run by volunteers, it is written in the guidelines.

Hello and Welcome!

These are some of the Victron Community guidelines. The community is predominantly volunteers, and the vast majority of the answers are provided by enthusiasts. It is not an Official Ask Victron site, for that please use the normal line of support.


And unless someone in Victron has had the time to experiment in the same way you are doing, you are not likely going to get much help from them either. I think what you are doing is interesting though. I also wanted to point out that not everything that does not work out how you think it should is a bug. Maybe things were designed a specific way for other reason.

For example the inverter only feature was added recently as a way for those who are not allowed ESS (boat owners etc) as a convenient way to prioritize solar when connected to shore power. So were they thinking about your application - very likely not. In anycase thanks for showing that it does not synchronise, I had seen the feature but had never used it. So I found that interesting.

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