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moeterxl avatar image
moeterxl asked

Feature request: Germany 70% feed in limitation of ESS to the grid

My system: Multigrid 48/3000/35-50 with Venus GX and two connected Pylontech US2000 Plus. A BlueSolar 150/35 is DC- connected to the Multigrid. My Fronius Primo 3.0-1 is AC- connected to the output 1 of the Multigrid. The gridmeter is an ET340.

Now i want to feed in the excess energy to the grid after loading the batteries to refinance my pv- system. If i want to get my feed in energy payed i have to register my system by an electrician to the energy supplier. There is a law in Germany called EEG: Only feed in 70% of all the generators maximum power output. The electrician have to set and confirm that the maximum power feed to grid is set to 70%.

Without this limitation to 70% on the entry point to grid you have to install a radio remote controller to govern down your system in four steps by the energy supplier in case of over- energy of the grid. This controller costs about 1100€ and monthly 5€. Last choice is to cut off all inverts to 70% of power generally.

Further information see: http://www.buzer.de/gesetz/11230/a188267.htm

The technical system and measuring devices are installed, available and working fine at the ESS. Other possibilities to limitate to 70% means an huge technical effort to the whole system and money or a loss of energy.

The Fronius and BlueSolar MPPT can be governed by the CCGX to zero feed in to the grid (works fine) but there is no possibility to govern it to a adjustable max. feed in to the grid.

I need a function to set the maximum power (50W steps) feeded to the grid by the ESS.
Priorities: 1 = self consumption; 2 = loading batteries; 3 = feed to grid with adjusted maximum power
This is an important function to use this system in Germany to feed in to the grid.

I don`t know the exact conditions of the network operators but password protection for the max. feed in value will be necessary.

Is Victron planning such a function?

CCGX Color ControlgridFroniusfeature requestmultigrid
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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf commented ·

Don't know exactly, what the current state of this law is, but I know that the EU is forcing Germany to increase the kWp limit (power of the solar generators) to 30 kWp (not 10 kWp as to my knowledge for now).

But even in the 2017 state of this law (the link you provided) I find only the 30 kWp limit.

So, I guess your are not affected by this law.

Ich würde mir das schwer überlegen, die Anlage als EEG-Anlage zu registrieren. Damit verlieren Sie jede Unabhängigkeit, müssen ein Gewerbe anmelden und haben es noch mit dem Finanzamt zu tun.

Überschüsse bei dieser Größe der Anlage könnten im Eigenbedarf verbraucht werden (Klimaanlage, Bewässerung, Außenbeleuchtung etc.).

Die Gesetze ändern sich gerade, auch der Verkauf von Überschüssen an den Nachbarn soll bei dieser Anlagengröße steuerfrei bleiben.

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basreflex avatar image
basreflex answered ·

my suggestion: place 1.75kwp extra panels and use that to directly charge the batteries. there is no extra excess energy avaliable on the AC side, but the kwp rule could include the dc panels. is that cheating ?

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moeterxl avatar image moeterxl commented ·

Here are near details. There are 10 x 300Wp connected to Fronius Primo 3.0-1 (AC-Out 1 of the Multigrid). There are also 10 x 280Wp connected to BluSolar 150/35 loading the batteries directly (DC- connected). If i don`t need the energy for the house, batteries are charged. But after 3 hrs my batteries are fully loaded and the excess of energy should load to the grid (works already fine). But if i want to get my feed in energy payed i have to register my system by an electrician to the energy supplier. There is a law in Germany called EEG: Only feed in 70% of all the generators maximum power output. The electrician have to set and confirm the maximum power feed to grid to a value like in my case 4,05kW.

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ moeterxl commented ·

Would setting the AC input current limit to the value of 70% of your total system power satisfy this law?

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markussi avatar image
markussi answered ·

Mir fallen da 2 Varianten ein:

1. Eine übergeordnete Steuerung, die die aktuelle Einspeiseleistung auswertet und dann den Grid Setpoint vom Multiplus steuert.

Da das ganze nicht „zertifiziert“ ist, kann ich nicht sagen ob das dem EEG als Regelung ausreicht.


2. Den Fronius Primo wie für 70% weich konfigurieren (mit Messgerät für die aktuelle Einspeiseleistung am Verknüpfungspunkt).

Allerdings bekommt der Primo als Sollwert dann 70% der Gesamtanlage eingestellt. Diesen soll er ausregeln. In Zweifel speist der Multiplus dann 100% ein und der Primo nur 50% oder 30%.

Der Multiplus wird auf „Überschusseinspeisung“ konfiguriert. So dass er erst die Batterie läd und dann in‘s Netz einspeist.


Gruß Markus

P.S.: Leider hatte ich noch keine Gelegenheit, ein solches System zu testen. Wenn der Primo die „70% weich“ Regelung beherrscht, sollte es aber Problemlos möglich sein. Die PV-Leistung am Wechselrichter muss halt ausreichend groß sein im Vergleich zur PV Leistung am Multiplus.




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moeterxl avatar image moeterxl commented ·

Ich habe es so umgesetzt: MultiGrid mit ET340 im Zählerschrank auf Nulleinspeisung, außer wenn Solarüberschuss vom MPPT vorhanden ist. Den Fronius Primo 3.0 auf Anlagengröße 5,4kW eingestellt und dynamische 70%- Regelung am Einspeisepunkt ausgewählt. Der MultiGrid macht 100% Einspeisung und der Fronius regelt bis 70% am Netzpunkt seine Leistung dazu ein.

Hinweis: Am MPPT / MultiGrid darf nicht mehr als 70% der Anlagennennleistung angeschlossen sein, um die Genze einhalten zu können. Ich habe am Primo 3,0kWp und am Multigrid über MPPT 2,7kWp angeschlossen. Hier zählt aber die Wirkleistung der Wechselrichter mit 3,0kW + 2,4kW = 5,4kW als Anlagenleistung.

Leider braucht man dazu zwingend zusätzlich das Fronius SmartMeter für schlappe 225€ zusätzlich im Zählerschrank, da Fronius andere Zähler (z.B. vorhanderer ET340) nicht akzeptiert und umgedreht Victron das Fronius SmartMeter nicht akzeptiert. Ein Auslesen des Netzzählers über einen S0- Lesekopf hat der Fronius verweigert. Ärgerliche und unglückliche Konstellation.

Damit funktioniert die dynamische Einspeisebegrenzung auf 70% am Einspeisepunkt jedoch einwandfrei, wenn auch mit sinnlosem Technikaufwand.

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joe2 avatar image
joe2 answered ·

Hallo,


Gibt es Neuigkeiten zu diesem Feature?

Ich benötige dieses auch.


Meine Anlage:

- 2 x Smart Solar MPPT 150/35 mit jeweils 1350W PV

- 48V 400Ah EFB Batterie

- Smart Battery Protect mit 1,5 KW Heitzpatrone zur Warmwassererwärmung


Nun wollte ich mit einem Multiplus II 3000, CCGX und EM24 in das Hausnetz bzw. Stromnetz einspeisen. Leider stelle ich fest, dass dies in Deutschland aufgrund der 70% Regelung nicht möglich ist. Da ich es ohne dieses Feature nicht beim Netzbetreiber Anmelden kann.

Gibt es evtl. eine Alternative wie ich die Anlage DC gekoppelt anmelden/einspeisen kann?


Vielen Dank

Joe

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ossi avatar image ossi commented ·

LÄUFT

Derzeit im Beta

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ossi avatar image
ossi answered ·

Hi Guys,


i was wondering why there is no Mod issue for this issue in the Mod Space?

@Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) could you plz move it?

For the German guys it is not understandable, why i can set Fronius Inverters to Zero feedin (without having the Fronius Meter installed) but not to 70% of the installed PV power?


Additionally according to German Law it would be optional - during the inspection of the grid provider- to show that the regulation hast been set.


I discussed this issue a long time (October 2018) ago directly with Matthijs in Groningen, I personally thought of addition to the VenusOS ESS menue, where you can set the value in Watts for the maximum feedin into the grid (valid for Fronius Inverters and Smart Solars).



For Zero feedin = 0W

For 70% of installed DC Power = 10kW * 70% = 7000W




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Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) avatar image Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Ossi

I know it's being worked on, but I don't know any details, sorry...

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ossi avatar image ossi Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff)


THX for the reply!


I think the german Victron guys would appreciate any update on this issue, thus making Victron ESS installation according to EEG (Feedin regulation in Germany "Erneuerbare Energien Gesetz") possible.

THX

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mvader (Victron Energy) avatar image mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ ossi commented ·

Hey @Ossi, we -finally!- started on this a few weeks ago.

Yes I’ll inform the german team too. Note that, as long as its not finished; as always its very hard to predict when its finished. Could be weeks, could be months.


unrelated I do have some other good news: keep an eye out on v2.60 beta firmware this week; it adds support for the carlo ethernet meter.

And, also unrelated, thanks a lot for your help in helping to realise the recent ess stability improvements.

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ossi avatar image ossi mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ commented ·

Hoi @mvader (Victron Energy Staff),


thx for the update on the feature development, it is much appreciated!


I noticed the EM24 Ethernet integration already, but didn't came to test it in the beta yet.

no problem about the stability update in FW469, since i only reported annoying issues back to Daniel and Peter ;)

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spudgun avatar image spudgun mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ commented ·

Hi @mvader (Victron Energy Staff)

This is a feature that I am also interested in and would like to see available. I know that it is hard to predict timelines as to when features will be ready but I just want to make sure that the feature is still being worked on and will be available at some stage (hopefully soon)? I have a system design that requires this export limit feature and I'd like the reassurance that the feature will be available. I can set the export to off in the meantime. Thanks

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Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) ♦♦ spudgun commented ·

Yes @Spudgun, still work in progress.

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martin-m avatar image martin-m mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ commented ·

Sounds very good. Looking forward to get this feature tested... I just wanted to post a feature request... the proposals showed this thread...

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moeterxl avatar image moeterxl commented ·

Hätte nicht gedacht, dass sich hier auf diesen alten Post noch was tut. Wenn das Feature so umgesetzt wird, wird das Victron- System für viele Deutsche sicher attraktiver werden.

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karlheinzhaller avatar image
karlheinzhaller answered ·

for Guy Stewart

Is there any update in regards to the set the value in Watts for the maximum feedin into the grid (valid for Fronius Inverters and Smart Solars).

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ossi avatar image ossi commented ·

Works now with Beta Venus OS- see above

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Sander van Noort avatar image
Sander van Noort answered ·

Hello,
this 70% is related to the installed solargererator in standard test condition (STC). The easiest way to avoid problems is to install more solarpanels. If you take a Multiplus 3000/48/35, it can feed 2400 Watt max. into the grid. If you take this as 70% you avoid problems by installing a solargenerator > 3428 Watt Peak. (2400W / 70 * 100). At normal radiation with 800W/m² the solargenerator (3428Watt * 0,8) will generate around 2740 Watt, so not more than 700 Watt is 'lost' if the batteries are already full. (The MPPT Charger will start to reduce power)..
The problem with a software based solution is that the grid provider will not accept it, it must be hard configured in the hardware and the user should not be able to change it.
Regards,
Msafiri

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ossi avatar image
ossi answered ·

Hi


current VenusOS RL Candidate requested feature integrate:


v2.60~25 is now available for beta testing.

See here for details:

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/51615/venus-os-v26025-available-to-be-tested.html


NEW Menue


Didnt have time to test it Anybody has Sunspec SMA Fronius Solaredge inverters AC Coupled?


TIA


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maha avatar image maha commented ·

Ich benutze die Funktion bereits seit Venus OS v2.60~14 und sie funktioniert einwandfrei.

Mein System:

2 MultiGrid parallel

MPPT 250/100 mit 5300Wp

Fronius Symo 8.2-3 mit 9750Wp

ET340

Die Einspeiseleistung ist bei mir auf 6.800W begrenzt.

Beim Fronius müssen Einstellungen entsprechend der Vorgaben für ESS gemacht werden. Siehe hier:

4.3.11 Zero feed-in (Fronius PV inverters only)

  • The earliest Fronius firmware version which can be used is 3.7.3-2
  • If there is more than one Fronius PV Inverter present in the system, they will all be limited
  • Zero feed-in is not supported on Fronius IG Plus inverters.

Change the following settings in the Fronius web interface:

  • In the Fronius setup menu, set Data export via Modbus to tcp.
  • In the same menu, set Sunspec Model Type to int + SF
  • In Settings→DNO Editor, make sure dynamic power reduction is set to No limit (this is the default).
  • In Settings→DNO Editor, make sure that in the 'Controlling Priorities' section that 'Controlling via Modbus' is set to be priority 1.

Use the Fronius Zero feed-in active menu item to double check that all above criteria are met. It will show No if the firmware requirement; the Data export; or the Sunspec Model type settings are incorrect.

Do not use a Fronius Smart Meter for limiting export when part of a Victron ESS System. More details about when a Fronius Smart Meter can, and can not be used is explained here.

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ossi avatar image ossi maha commented ·

@MaHa

Danke für das Feedback! das mit Fronius ist schön - aber auch keine herrausforderung war ja bereits bei dem Feature NULL- Einspeisung grundsätzlich vorhanden.

Aber ich frage mich ob die anderen Sunspec Kompatiblen Wechselrichter das auch so einfach läuft, denn die Ertragsanzeige SMA (getestet) und Solaredge funktioniert ja auch über Sunspec

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mvader (Victron Energy) avatar image mvader (Victron Energy) ♦♦ ossi commented ·

Hi @Ossi, the new feedin limiter feature works for dc coupled pv (multi + mppt) as well as ac coupled pv. And a combination of both.

For AC coupled PV it only works with pv inverters that also support our zero feedin feature works with Fronius & ABB. SMA & Solar Edge are not supported. See https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ccgx:start - chapter 1.5.


The problem with both SMA and SolarEdge is that they are not fully Sunspec compliant when it comes to output controlling them. We could perhaps work around that - but for now have chosen to not do that.

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ossi avatar image ossi ossi commented ·

Tested Today - WORKS!

Thrid Party Inverters (StecaGrid 2500 & 1500)via Energycounter and Smart Solar 150/30

Limit 3000W Grid injection.

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bernhard-1 avatar image bernhard-1 maha commented ·

Tested today, works without problems.

- Fronius Symo 7.0 with 7,7 kWp
- EM24
- Quattro, CCGX
- Fronius Settings as described by MaHa

A really usefull feature here in Germany, thank you!

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Related Resources

CCGX Product Manual

CCGX Product page

AC-coupled PV with Fronius PV Inverters live docs

Fronius Webinar: Fronius & Victron Energy: Easy system set-up

Fronius Advanced Webinar: AC Coupling with Fronius & Victron (AFR)

Fronius Webinar: Smart rural electrification with Fronius and Victron Energy

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