question

magicmike avatar image
magicmike asked

Off grid system upgrade, need another inverter/charger- with one should i go for?

Hello,
I need info what Inverter/Charger should i buy for my setup.
I have big problem that Victron Distributors won't help me at all.
They just never gets back to me...
What i have already is off grid 100%.

I have connected and running for many years;
EasySolar
15x : CS6P-250 panels
Powerbank: OPZS 130a 56V (2.25v batteries)
Mk3 to USB
BMV-700
Diesel power generator 8KW

What i dont have connected and i bought already:
10 panels JAM60S20-380/MR
Powerbank: OPZS 24V (2.25v batteries)

What i would like to do, connect new panels and new 24v powerbank would be nice to hook it up into 1phase so i could pull more power out of socket etc.

Help me please...

my inverter is:

https://imgur.com/a/zI1L1Ei

a1-copy.jpg

img-20210902-180925.jpg

img-20210902-180932.jpg



Multiplus-IIEasySolar All-in-Onemultigrid
img-20210902-180932.jpg (1.9 MiB)
img-20210902-180925.jpg (2.6 MiB)
a1-copy.jpg (786.2 KiB)
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4 Answers
marekp avatar image
marekp answered ·

Whatever you buy to work with the 24V battery and those PV panels, you will not be able to connect it to the output from EasySolar that you already have.

It will have to be separate circuit in your house.

What equipment you would have to buy, to utilize your new panels and battery, is impossible to say with the information you provided.

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magicmike avatar image magicmike commented ·

But what kind of more info you need?


For example;

my easysolar is 48 with 56v battery bank+

Can i buy MultiPlus Inverter/Charger 24v-220v / 3000W / 70A and connect these in parell + MPPT with i nedd? (i need 150/75) so i ll be able to draw more out of socket or if my easysolar is 48 i need another multiplus 48 ?


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marekp avatar image marekp magicmike commented ·

How big is that new battery?

How old it is?

No, you cannot put systems that different in parallel.

There is a possibility that currently made Multiplus inverter (not Multiplus-II) will be compatible with your EasySolar. They have to have the same inverter hardware inside.

The best is to ask Victron.

Send them the part number and serial number and they will tell you if it is possible.

But your 24V battery will not work with it.



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magicmike avatar image magicmike marekp commented ·

Battery is 350a, and its new,

I've asked so many victron distributors and i ll try victron directly, maybe they ll point me to right direciton.

I think instead of parallel i might make just 2nd line and that ll be easier and hassle free

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marekp avatar image marekp magicmike commented ·

If you try to make this a parallel system it would have to be 48V one.

I see two possible problems in getting it work.

1. Finding Multiplus inverter compatible with your ES. Your ES is from April 2020 and now we have September 2021. With that older model of MP it maybe possible.

Try sending your question to this email (sales@victronenergy.com)

2. Your current battery is several years old and it is 48V. Your new battery is new and it is 24V. In the parallel system there can be only one battery. You can try to add cells in parallel to your old battery but it is not a good idea, because older battery will have higher internal resistance than the new one. You will have to try it and closely observe how they work together. The different size (350 vis 130) of the old and new cell will not make it easier. I would connect one old cell with one new in parallel and than make it into big serial pack to get 48V.

Making two separate system is for sure easier now but could be less useful in the long run. Two different battery sizes, two different inverters, the 24V battery would need twice as thick wires and twice as big fuses and switch. And need for separate circuit at home.


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magicmike avatar image magicmike marekp commented ·

What im thinking right now is to buy multiplus 24/5000 and charger 150/85 or 150/100, hook it up to new battery pack and make 2nd line. i think thats only way to do now...

Its gonna costs millions unfortunately...

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marekp avatar image marekp magicmike commented ·
If I were you, I would do the following.

1. Ask Victron if whether they have Multiplus inverter compatible with your ES.

If the do, I would buy it and connect it in parallel with your ES.

Buy additional 24V of the same new battery to make it 48V and connect it in parallel to the old one. (the way I described before)

Buy MPPT charger for the new set of panels.

2. If there is no MP compatible with your ES, do what you just described but for 48V battery.

Sell this new 24V battery and buy 48V LFP battery. In the long run they will be less expensive than the PB type.



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magicmike avatar image magicmike marekp commented ·
Got sorted with 48/5000 and another 24v battery bank. Thank you
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Paul B avatar image
Paul B answered ·

The easy solar 48 3000 is compatible with a multiplus 48 3000 no problems at all, only caveat is that they have to be upgraded all on the same Fw. so buy a MP 48- 3000 and you can set these up in parallel

NOTE your easy solar has a 50A pass through relay ONLY BUY a 48-3000 with a 50amp Pass through relay ( this is important) The correct part number is PMP483021010

DO NOT buy the multiplus 48 3000 with a 16 amp pass through as these cannot be connected to your existing unit,

But all the batteries must be the same voltage so you will need to buy another 24 volt bank.

and all connected to be one bank and bring the voltage upto 48v

YOU cannot connect a 48v inverter and a 24 volt inverter system onto the same phase.

so you do not have a option but to upgrade the new battery to 48v

if you do the above then for the solar panels you have two options

1. Go DC connect, buy some victron mppt units to connect them to the 48 v batteries

2. Go Ac connect . buy a 3 to 5Kw Grid tie inverter and install this on the AC1 out

I would also install a Cerbo gx so that you can get remote support and setup.

happy to help you with a full diagram for the setup if thats of help and to remote configure the site for you ( cerbo MUST be installed to do the remote setup), but first you have to decided what you are going to buy. you can direct email me if you wish (internet access for the cerbo GX is a must have for remote support)





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mrhappy avatar image mrhappy commented ·

You wrote: "YOU cannot connect a 48v inverter and a 24 volt inverter system onto the same phase."

Why?

Could it not be possible for him to get an ES 24/3000, use it with the new battery and solar panels, connect his existing ES AC Out to the new ES AC In and from the new ES AC out to the house main circuit? That way the new system could be configured to keep the 24V battery topped up and ready to PowerAssist whenever that would be needed and when not, just pass through the power from the older ES. Just an idea...

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marekp avatar image marekp mrhappy commented ·
This will not give him more power from the system, and possibility of higher load he is after.
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Paul B avatar image Paul B mrhappy commented ·
if you connect 2 diferant inverters up (that are NOT setup for parallel operation) to the same phase then the cycles will not match and thus one or both of the units will overload and maybe also go bang.

you cant parrallel units of diferant DC voltages and another restriction is that both inverters HAVE to be on the same battery bank. and thus as there is a 24v bank and a 48V bank you cant do it


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marekp avatar image marekp Paul B commented ·
But @MrHappy is proposing cascade not a parallel system.

Cascade system can work with different battery for each inverter but will not provide more load capacity.


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mrhappy avatar image mrhappy marekp commented ·
Indeed. Since the ES/Multiplus sync with incoming freq/voltage it would, in a cascade system, sync with the "upstream" inverters freq/voltage and handle it as if it were a grid connection. I wonder, what makes inverter number two know that the power coming into "AC in" is from another inverter and not the grid, and thus "go bang"?


I also do not understand why the second inverter would not be able to add it's inverted power in PowerAssist mode? Theoretically it would work IMO. Could someone explain?
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marekp avatar image marekp mrhappy commented ·

Interesting idea.

Someone from Victron could chip in and explain if it is possible or why it is not possible.

It should work with the 32A limit of the transfer switch in the MP-II, but ES cannot provide continuously more than 2400W so that switch should be safe.

If the shore power comes from ES it should work like in this example.

screen-shot-2021-09-18-at-60032-pm.png

ES with the bigger battery and MP-II behind it with the smaller one, so both battery packs are fully accessible.

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screen-shot-2021-09-18-at-60032-pm.png (91.6 KiB)
mrhappy avatar image mrhappy marekp commented ·

Sticking to @MagicMike's current setup, my theoretical proposal is as follows:victron-es-cascading.png

The 24V ES would have to be set to limiting input current to the maximum output current of the 48V ES. I see that high and short start-up currents would not utilize both inverters over-capacity, so in some regards this setup seems a bit sketchy, but with continuous outputs I believe it could work. Maybe connecting it to be safe and according to regulations is not possible?

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victron-es-cascading.png (13.0 KiB)
marekp avatar image marekp mrhappy commented ·
Hi @MrHappy

Two corrections.

Authors system is OFF-grid so there is no AC-in.

Battery connected to ES is smaller (48V/130Ah) than the second new pack (24V/350Ah). Should be the other way around.

First battery pack should be bigger to keep supplying power after the second one gets empty.


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mrhappy avatar image mrhappy marekp commented ·

Well, i had not drawn anything connected to AC IN on the first inverter, but I'll remove the label to avoid further confusion.

Update:

victron-es-cascading.png

It would be interesting to hear from any victron staff about a setup like this. To clarify: I am only guessing it could work correctly :)

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victron-es-cascading.png (13.4 KiB)
marekp avatar image marekp mrhappy commented ·

I am also not sure it would work.

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magicmike avatar image magicmike mrhappy commented ·

well this diagram looks actually good idea.

I have it slightly edited as well to show what ive got already;

23981-victron-es-cascading.png



No guys I don't want to run two separate systems but I think I've no choice of what ppl said.

Like for example using my easysolar 48/3000 i cannot start power washer- its over loaded. I have to start generator then powerwasher.


I would LOVE to run one system out of one fuse box/ PHASE to save me hassle with connecting / making up another fuse box and 2nd lane (its painful over 50meters of cable from 'power station' to shed)

Sadly due lack of help before I already bought:

SmartSolar MPPT RS 450/100-Tr

And

MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V

and CERBO

+ 350ah 48v power bank. OzPs

My Easysolar is old piece so it's impossible to get another one.

Seller told me i should run two strings of 5 panels per sting and then i can upgrade it up to 8-9 panels per string.


So my new setup / 2nd line would be;

SmartSolar MPPT RS 450/100-Tr

MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V

Cerbo

350ah 48v power bank

10 panels JAM60S20-380/MR

Diesel generator 8kw



100% off grid.


I've opened topic over 2 weeks ago, winter is coming i needed solution and to be fair- its very hard to find good distributor. I think i found one after couple of months but im also happy to know what @Paul thinks about your idea @MrHappy


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23981-victron-es-cascading.png (340.9 KiB)
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bruces avatar image
bruces answered ·

Rob I think he just wants to run two separate systems.

To be honest I've found all the 'major' makers of this equipment only support firstly, the country distributors, then the installers and only the users if you kick up a bigger enough stink either on their forums or bookface etc.

I've yet to find a manufacturer that is remotely interested in talking to a user.

We all know how much a call out is & is the problem still found?

Sorry to sound a bit jaded but that's how it is.

Won't mention what I have now though.

Is the OP in Australia?

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magicmike avatar image magicmike commented ·
No im not in Australia, im in Ireland where is big problem with competent solar staff- thats most reason why everything is in my hands.

I'm not stupid- i just need to put all puzzles together and i ll work it out 'some how' :)

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magicmike avatar image
magicmike answered ·

No guys I don't want to run two separate systems but I think I've no choice.

I would LOVE to run one system out of one fuse box/ PHASE to save me hassle.

Anyways, I ll read all comments later on pc.

Sadly due lack of help before I already bought:

SmartSolar MPPT RS 450/100-Tr

And

MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V

and CERBO

+ 350ah 48v power bank. OzPs

My Easysolar is old piece so it's impossible to get another one.


Seller told me i should run two strings of 5 panels per sting and then i can upgrade it up to 8-9 panels per string.


So my new setup / 2nd line would be;

SmartSolar MPPT RS 450/100-Tr

MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V

Cerbo

350ah 48v power bank

10 panels JAM60S20-380/MR

Diesel generator 8kw



100% off grid.


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