question

valden avatar image
valden asked

A Victron - Mastervolt Hybrid System?

Hello everyone.

Has anyone built a Victron - Mastervolt hybrid system? Why not select the best elements from both if building a solar/lithium battery system for a boat from scratch? Victron’s open-systems approach enables this.

I’m designing a lithium battery system for a sailing yacht, currently under construction. Basic parameters are: ~1200Ah of lithium batteries; 1200W of solar panels; combined inverter/charger with shore power connection; no generator but twin alternators; worldwide sailing program including Arctic/Antarctic environments.

I’ve been looking closely at Victron and Mastervolt systems, along with batteries from other suppliers. I’ve been struggling to reconcile a few concerns.

While I’m happy with most elements of a Victron system, weaknesses are:

- integration and control of alternators. While Victron offers modules that can shield lithium batteries and alternators from each others’ damaging tendencies, it doesn’t provide a fully integrated method for controlling alternators, so that they can deliver ideal battery charging.

- the low IP22 rating of the batteries. IP22 might stop small rocks and drips of water from getting into the batteries, however, these will be installed in the bilge area of a rocking and rolling sailing yacht. Hmmm. :-/

- a Victron lithium battery warranty will be voided by any charging below 5℃. The yacht will be used in Arctic and Antarctic locations, where water temperatures down to 1 or 2℃ are higher than air temperatures. To take advantage of this the hull is uninsulated below the waterline. Keeping the batteries warm will not always be convenient, but catching what sunlight is available will always be important.

Some problems with Mastervolt's offerings are:

- solar charge controllers. Mastervolt’s range is small and performance of the best candidate is insufficient.

- system programming and monitoring. Mastervolt’s software for programming system elements is effective but is far less user friendly than Victron’s. Mastervolt’s monitoring and control displays are less convenient. Victron’s options for Bluetooth interfacing, with Apple iOS and OS X apps and software is a big plus. The ease of interpreting energy flows via Victron’s GX devices can’t be matched by Mastervolt’s presentation of discrete numbers.

I’m thinking that an ideal hybrid system for my yacht, using the best of both makers, will be to ask the builder's electrical engineer to install:

From Victron:
- Cerbo GX and GX Touch 50, for system status display including tanks and pumps and to control charging via DVCC
- MultiPlus 12/3000/120-50
- Smart Solar MPPT 100/50 (x3)
- SmartShunt 1000
- Phoenix IP43 24/25 charger, for bowthruster battery charging

From Mastervolt:
- 3 x 12/5500 MLI lithium batteries (400Ah each). IP65 protection rating! No warranty voiding by charging below 5℃. With 3 x BlueSeas ML RBS safety switches - to cut loads and charging in the one unit, which also has a manual isolation switch. Brilliant! And a Blue Seas ML ACR battery combiner - to charge both house and engine-start batteries from alternators
- 2 x AlphaPro III alternator regulators - programmable for Bulk, Absorption and Float charging. Better and easier than Balmar's offerings I think.
- MasterShunt - to send battery voltage and temperature data to the alternator regulators (might not need this if the regulators can get this data directly from the Mastervolt batteries via Masterbus)
- Masterbus to USB adapter - to enable programming via MasterAdjust software and effing Windows.

This thread advises that using two shunts will work. This will be important, so please speak up if you can see a problem.

DVCC should work. Victron's GX devices appear to be battery agnostic. I don't plan to connect the Mastervolt batteries to the Cerbo's BMSbus port, but doing so might be a future project.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

Thank you.

Edit on 28 Apr 2020. A thought is that I can get the great performance of the Mastervolt AlphaPro III alternator regulators without necessarily needing the Mastervolt batteries. All I need is the Mastervolt shunt, which will communicate with the regulators and keep the alternators safe, performing well and charging the batteries well. This means I can use Victron lithium batteries if desired. That's handy.

Lithium Batterysolargx devicealternator
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

2 Answers
Paul B avatar image
Paul B answered ·

Have a look at the WS-500 Regulator made by wakespeed as these are very flexible alternator regulator, the best that I have seen around. lots of options inc canbus interface and a USB programing port.

yes most Lithium Phosphate batteries should not be charge at less than +5 Deg C , this is to protect the life of the battery and if you look around from what I have seen all of them say the same around the same sort of temp range thing +5 deg C dont charge below this,

Overall its best to try and keep everything the same brand so that interfacing is eayser.

Also if you ask around if you do have issues VICTRON has the best warranty backup out there, (in my opinion) be fair to them they are fair to you. Plus you can get a 10 year warranty for a 10% fee (not on the batteries though)

below is one that says 0 to 45 deg c for charging



1587897450960.png (38.7 KiB)
2 comments
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

valden avatar image valden commented ·

Hi Paul. Thanks. I will definitely have a look at the WS-500. The CANbus connectivity might provide a way for the Cerbo GX to control it.
Yes, lithium batts prefer to be charged above 5 degrees C, but that’s not always possible. I’d rather not void the warranty for a rare sub 5 charging event.

0 Likes 0 ·
bathnm avatar image bathnm valden commented ·

I'd talk with Victron and Wakespeed. I am aware that Wakespeed are doing a lot of integration with various BMS and there is some very early testing with Victron. The more of us that push them the quicker something formal might come!

0 Likes 0 ·
safiery avatar image
safiery answered ·

@Valden Our experience is to keep the same eco-system for control, but GUI may be different. For energy control, Victron outperform Mastervolt. The future is CANbus in communication and the fact that Victron have opened up the Cerbo (GX) to BMS CAN connectivity is very smart. We already have a third party 48V Lithium battery interfaced through this and we have a 12V under test. We have just finished a CANbus integration to an Alternator Controller as well. Then with Victron's "out of the box" glass bridge integration, key elements appear on this display. You haven't mentioned tank measurement and temps which Victron are working on. To us, Victron are a long, long way ahead.

1 comment
2 |3000
Toggle Comment visibility. Current Visibility: Viewable by all users

Up to 8 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 190.8 MiB each and 286.6 MiB total.

valden avatar image valden commented ·

Hi Bruce. Yes, it's smart of Victron to include BMS-Can with the Cerbo, but where are Victron's BMS-Can capable batteries? :-|

As I weigh up Victron and Mastervolt I can see the different strategies. Mastervolt's broad adoption of the Can.bus compatible Masterbus protocol with most of its devices makes for a system that is easy to integrate and program, though somewhat closed to third party devices or older equipment. Victron's approach appears to be more open, though this brings with it a degree of 'all over the place-ness'. If I stick with Victron the system will feature devices that are communicating via BMS.bus, VE.Direct, Can.bus, USB, DC, possibly BMS-Can, WiFi, Bluetooth, or not at all; perhaps more. It doesn't matter, if it all works ...

My focus is more on performance of system elements rather than their method of integration.

I'm hoping to find (or find someone showing me) how Victron can achieve the kind of alternator control I can get with Mastervolt batteries talking to Mastervolt alternators via Masterbus. Where is it? Balmar, Wakespeed, Sterling - all make nice products, but these are not Victron system integrated solutions. They are ignored.

It's no laughing matter to be out in the middle of the ocean with an alternator that has been destroyed by trying to charge hungry lithium batteries. A spare is no use if it's going to be destroyed too.

From what I've seen so far, Victron's approach to alternators appears to be, 'We'll protect our gear from your alternator, but what happens to your alternator is someone else's problem.' This isn't safe.

p.s. Re tanks, temps and pumps - in a draft of my original post I did mention that the Cerbo is ideal for gathering, reporting on and controlling these. I plan to bring seven tank levels in through Can.bus, as well as control three bilge pumps and monitor the battery box temperature. It's a great development, the Cerbo. Now all we need is for production to catch up with demand.

Does anyone know why deliveries of the Cerbo stopped after the first batch? I'm told that getting one will now be difficult before about September 2020.

0 Likes 0 ·

Related Resources

Additional resources still need to be added for this topic

Battery Compatibility

Did You Know - How to create a battery profile for non-Victron batteries?

Additional resources still need to be added for this topic

Victron panels and system monitoring products page

Victron GX device product family comparison table

Cerbo GX topic page