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Andreas Jaunsen avatar image
Andreas Jaunsen asked

50Hz washing machine not running on Multiplus in Inverter mode

I have 24v DC system onboard with a Victron Energy BMS 400, 2x Li-ion HE 24/180A batteries and Multiplus 24/3000/70-50 charger/inverter.

I have a SOBA 1150 washing machine onboard (230V, 50Hz). On generator it works well, but if I start it with genset turned off and instead letting the Multiplus inverter mode deal with it – it simply does not work. Machine comes on as normal, start the program, it takes a few seconds before starting and I hear a pump running abnormally (same situation if I try running it on shore power with 230V/60Hz).

I see from other similar questions that there basically does not seem to be any good explanations, which is disappointing. I mean 3000W should be plenty (and I have everything else turned off), so I would not expect this to improve by getting an additional Multiplus.

Any thoughts?

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter Chargerfrequency
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michelg avatar image michelg commented ·

Hi Ajausen ! I am pretty sure of the issue... I use 2 inverters in my setup, a Victron Phoenix 800VA, and a MPPSolar 3kVA.

I have had problems with both of them, but found a work around. The Victron Phoenix is not enough powerful to run the motor, the MPPSolar does it fine : BUT

for that I need to use a "cold wash program". In my opinion your heater element is too power hungry, and it stress the Multiplus in any way, creating the problem.

You have several options :

1) you use a cold washing program (not sure if possible according to your manual)

2) provide directly hot water (usually 30C/40C programs are able to cope with it)

3) disconnect your heating element and replace it witha less powerfil. a 800W as per example.

In my washing mashine, the heater is around 2800W ! so no way to use it, it disconnects the inverter.

Michel

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ejrossouw avatar image
ejrossouw answered ·

Hi @ajaunsen Do you have VRM so you can have a look at some of the graphs to try to and identify anomalies or strange behaviour? What frequency is you generator output? Also, what frequency is the inverter configured for as the washing machine electronics may well be sensitive to a wrong frequency and not like 60Hz

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Andreas Jaunsen avatar image Andreas Jaunsen commented ·

Thanks for your response. I do have VRM, but have not studied those curves during attempting to run the washing machine off the inverter (I am also not in or near the boat, so I can not do it any time soon either).

Genset is 50Hz, same as inverter is configured to.

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Andreas Jaunsen avatar image Andreas Jaunsen commented ·

Hi. Not sure if I answered to this already, but yes I do have VRM, but I have not studied the graphs during the attempts to run the washing machine off the inverter (and I am not currently on the boat). The generator provides 230V/50Hz.


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petajoule avatar image
petajoule answered ·

I mean 3000W should be plenty (and I have everything else turned off),


No, it shouldn't.


You have 3000VA, not 3000W. The washing machine is specified with 2200W (https://manuall.co.uk/soba-babynova-1150-rapid-washing-machine/).

Now if it starts to heat up water - that's a resistive load and ok.

If - in addition to that - pump and motor (1-phase) starting, you know the motor can draw up to 6 times its nominal current?

You write "it simply does not work". To that one could comment "have you tried to turn it off and on again?", ;-) but more interesting would be the info if the MultiPlus shows some overload condition or not.

I.e. I would need a translation of "it simply does not work" into

Machine stops working?

Multiplus turns off?


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Andreas Jaunsen avatar image Andreas Jaunsen commented ·

Thanks for your clarifications. Indeed, it is 3000VA.

I am pretty sure it does not start to heat up water as water has not yet been added in this early stage of the program. I believe the washing program i) pumps out remaining water, ii) adds water, then starts rotating the drum ... and heat up water.

So, to clarify the "it simply does not work": As the machine attempts to pump out the water, which is most likely not happening as the pump does not sound to be operating normally as I mentioned. It may be turning, but only in very slowly or intermittently and in an uneven fashion. After 1 minute or so I believe it turns off and the machine either gives an error that something is wrong or that it can not empty the drum (not sure which). There is no apparent error on the inverter.

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petajoule avatar image petajoule Andreas Jaunsen commented ·

Intriguing problem, so I had a look. Unfortunately, it seems to be a common issue with exactly the same phenotype you are experiencing:

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/27168/off-grid-washing-machine.html

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/2521/easysolar-12160070-inverter-will-not-run-small-was.html

People do have success driving a 1000W washing machine with 3000VA inverters:

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/anyone-using-a-washing-machine-from-an-invertor.310457/

---

There is an intriguing hint to try some resistive load in addition to the wahing machine (100W bulb) which might be worth a try.


BTW: I've never heard of a 230V/60Hz system.

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Andreas Jaunsen avatar image Andreas Jaunsen petajoule commented ·

Yes, I've seen those posts too and my impression is there is no evident solution to that problem in that (other than that the inverter is not powerful enough). I will try the additional resistive load too, when I'm back in the boat.

I will eventually need to add another Multiplus 24/3000/70-50 to reduce my battery bank charging times from generator. That should hopefully solve this issue... but I don't feel confident it will.

As for the 220-230V/60Hz, yes they do exist in a few places and the place I have come across this is in some Leeward islands in the Caribbean (in Antigua to be precise). There are a few more examples listed here:

https://www.school-for-champions.com/science/ac_world_volt_freq_list.htm#.Xk-AKhNKiL9

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petajoule avatar image petajoule Andreas Jaunsen commented ·

I can tell you that a 48V/5kVA Quattro hasn't yet met its washing machine master. I.e. has up to now coped with every washing machine it has been confronted with.

The 48V is not the relevant part, the 5kVA is. If you have 2 x 3kVA (parallel), that team should win the tug-o-war with your washing machine. I would be confident in that case.


PS: Thanks for the list of AC-Standards by location - great resource.

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Andreas Jaunsen avatar image Andreas Jaunsen commented ·

What I mean by "it simply does not work" is that the pumps in the washing machine are not running normally and the machine never continues with the washing program because the pump is not able to evacuate the water inside.

I have included a video+audio showing how the machine behaves running on the inverter.

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washing-machine-2.mp4 (836.0 KiB)
washing-machine.mp4 (3.3 MiB)
max-b avatar image
max-b answered ·
3000VA should work. I do have a washing machine of similar power and it works. If there are other loads, il may occasionally and briefly light the overload led. But definitely works, every 2 or 3 days. I'm more on the side of inverter frequency set to 60Hz.
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jwfrary avatar image
jwfrary answered ·

Just to chip in we have a rather varied load profile attached to our paralleled multi plus same as your and successful power up to 5kw without any trouble. In fact, the multi tend to help the generator get up to load most of the time if we are running it.

As others have said, machines with different load types in them like a washing machine can present this kind of problem and so there’s no guarantee something that says 2.2 kw on the label won’t draw an awful lot more than that for short periods.

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Andreas Jaunsen avatar image Andreas Jaunsen commented ·

Thanks for the input. I will indeed check this out more thoroughly when I return to the boat.

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svenjoy avatar image
svenjoy answered ·

I can add to this -- We also have a eudora 1150. It had been working fine on the inverter, and at some point, it stopped working on the inverter. It works fine on the generator, same as the OP. I've watched the profiles as it runs. It does not run the heating element as it is filling or draining (it's a very obvious spike in usage). It does fail on the drain.


In the past, we have seen something similar if we've tried running the washing machine at 230V 60hz (by accident - forgot we were plugged in).

It appeared to me that the change occurred after a firmware upgrade, that reset all the settings on the Charger/Inverter. I reset them back to what I believe were the same settings, and have looked to see if there is anything else obvious. No Luck.


Could there have been a firmware change that caused this, or a setting that needs tuning? That has been my hunch, since the rest of the system has been static.


Notes:


I've looked at the charts in VRM, monitored the output on the BMV and looked at the data coming from the venus (I've have it connected with MQTT to a raspberry pi running grafana. It's not something that appears on the sensors. There is no large sag in DC power, no change in frequency that is reported.

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permyra avatar image
permyra answered ·

Hi,

Do you have the AES enabled on your Multi?

Inverter:

7. Energy saving setting to conserve power if there is no significant load drawn from the inverter. - If the system has consumers with high inrush characteristics (such as microwave ovens and air-conditioning) deactivate AES to prevent them from switching on too slowly and causing overload.

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svenjoy avatar image svenjoy commented ·

No, AES is switched off.

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svenjoy answered ·

Is there a way to tell if AES is really off other than the UI settings? Is there an external characteristic or warning that would be more frequent if AES is switched on and the UI is incorrect? (such as DC ripple, overload, etc?)

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svenjoy avatar image
svenjoy answered ·

As you posted in the video, it sure sounds like the wrong frequency. Just to be sure, have you double checked the multiplus setting in the config to be sure it's set to 50hz?

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cyberhom avatar image
cyberhom answered ·

I had the same issue.

Ensure you have no AC into the Inverter/charger. Switch off at the plug or unplug, then try.

Mine was syncing to a non existent supply, hence 45Hz The min valiue.

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