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Good morning.
How many seconds can a Phoenix inverter withstand peak power?
Specifically the 500VA?
Many manufacturers in the data sheet specify the possible time at various overload levels.
victron no.
Many low frequency inverters with transformers (such as the Phoenix victron) claim surge power over 3x the nominal power.
Victron instead declares a surge power of about 2x, like the cheap high frequency inverters.
Can anyone help me clarify?
Thank you
Phoenix 12/500...
Pnom = 500 watts
P30 = 525 watts
Pstartup = 900 watts
I assume ...
Pnom = continuous
P30 = 30 minutes ?
Pstartup = Victron does not define Pstartup but Quattro states 2X for 1/2 second
Ok thanks you..
seems to be what I see in reality with the Phoenix 500.
I actually see startups up to 1200w for a few moments.
but with 800w it lasts about 10 seconds.
Why does it say in the webinar that the multiplus supports startup for.2 minutes?
it's different?
where did you find this data on the phoenix 500?
there are many high frequency inverters that claim up to 250% in startup.
and for 5 seconds.
it seems strange to me that the phoenix with a low frequency transformer has a startup of only 200% for half a second.
Thank you
I have tested phoenix 500 now.
At 525/540w handle 30 second.
At peak power 2 seconds.
Totally different from that says the webinar of quattro or multi.
I'm confused.
this 360 euro, 3,000 W low-frequency with transformer Chinese inverter supports a peak of 300%.
This Italian high frequency inverter of 3000w and 1000 euros supports a peak of 8000w for 5 seconds.
https://www.ndsenergy.it/prodotto/smart-in-inverter/
What is the point of having a victron with a transformer that weighs a ton if it bears less power than a Chinese one with a transformer, and less than a high-quality high-frequency inverter?
OK, so "P30" means 30 seconds, not 30 minutes. Good to know.
Are you sure the Phoenix 12/500 is "Low Frequency"? Victron states, High Frequency Hybrid Technology. I tend not to use terms like "LF" vs "HF". Since, there is no official definition.
I get my information directly from the Victron manual. Written information is usually more accurate. Unfortunately, Victron never defined the terms: "P30" or "Pstartup" in their manual.
I have not seen the webinar for the Phoenix 12/500.
@Fra I have tested phoenix 500 now.
At 525/540w handle 30 second.
At peak power 2 seconds.
Thats about what I would expect. Shorter leads and a stiffer battery might do a bit better due to higher available current and less voltage drop.
@mvas Are you sure the Phoenix 12/500 is "Low Frequency"?
Any inverter that has the switching electronics (H bridge) before the chunky transformer can be considered LF. The transformer directly converts chopped up battery voltage to AC voltage.
A HF inverter that has a small transformer that boosts the battery voltage up to ~400v. The electronics after that chop up the DC into AC with a H bridge.
Disadvantage of HF inverters. Small transformer has a low thermal mass that quickly heat up when overloaded. H bridge operates at 400v, poor design and component matching results in dead inverter.
Disadvantages of LF inverters. Weight, cost and size of transformer.
Any inverter that has the switching electronics (H bridge) before the chunky transformer can be considered LF. The transformer directly converts chopped up battery voltage to AC voltage. A HF inverter that has a small transformer that boosts the battery voltage up to ~400v. The electronics after that chop up the DC into AC with a H bridge.
So, your new definition of "LF - Low Frequency" vs "HF - High Frequency" is solely based on whether the Inverter has a Large Heavy Iron Transformer in the output stage vs an H-Bridge in the output stage? And it has nothing to do with frequency? What you have just described is actually called "Transformer" based technology vs "TL - Transformerless" based technology.
Today, very few PSW manufacturers still use true LF - Low Frequency technology. Almost all MSW Inverters are LF - Low Frequency. So, to imply that Victron Inverters are also LF - Low Frequency is very misleading because Victron and other mfrs that use a Large Heavy Iron Transformer, actually use High Frequency = Hybrid. Also, some Transformer based inverters do not even have an H-Bridge before the transformer, so that is another exception in your "LF" definition. Also, the voltage into the Primary Winding of the Heavy Iron Transformer may, or may not be, at Battery Voltage - another exception in your definition. LF vs HF ... You are trying to pound a square peg, into a round hole. It is called "Transformer" based technology vs "Transformer-less" based technology.
@mvas What you have just described is actually called "Transformer" based technology vs "TL - Transformerless" based technology.
TL inverters are a different beast. They use 350v+ DC input voltage and use a H bridge to chop up the DC into AC.There is no electrical isolation between the DC and AC. Essentially the DC input floats at AC mains potential.
I guess that the Tesla powerwall battery uses a TL inverter. Makes sense for a 400v battery.
You can call a Victron Quattro ... "Low Frequency" but it is not Low Frequency. Most MSW Inverters, especially the older units, are Low Frequency, but that is not how the Victron toroid works. I can't stop you from using these terms incorrectly ...
@mvas An MSW Inverter is Low Frequency
Not really. You can get MSW inverters without the chunky transformer.
And so what does that mean? Does it prove, that Inverter is "High Frequency" ? No, it does not. That MSW could still be, and probably is, "Low Frequency" in the output H-Bridge. Thank You for proving my point, yet again. I changed my previous reply to: "most MSW inverters are LF". Regardless, Victron units with a toroid are still "Transformer and High Frequency" = Hybrid technology.
usually inverters with transformer (toroidal or square) have up to over 300% peak power.
But, the Phoenix inverters, at least the 250 to 1200va models, seem to have a disappointing peak power, on the same level as many cheap high frequency inverters without a large transformer.
Decent quality high frequency inverters always hit 200% for 5 seconds. High-quality high-frequency inverters arrive over 250%.
Victron with transformer reaches 200% for half a second?? Bah....
@Fra But, the Phoenix inverters, at least the 250 to 1200va models, seem to have a disappointing peak power, on the same level as many cheap high frequency inverters without a large transformer.
Decent quality high frequency inverters always hit 200% for 5 seconds. High-quality high-frequency inverters arrive over 250%.
Unless you have tested then, you are relying on anonymous/unproven spec, or NFI talking heads that are on the internet. Your own experience and results actually matter.
Myself, I have a Victron 350Va inverter, that will reliably start my 55w rated fridge every time. This fridge will peak at 80a @ 12v during start up. Do the maths. That is not a reliable solution long term for my inverter / fridge combo, let alone any other stuff l need to run.
Short inverter leads reduce the voltage drop between batt and inverter (voltage drop requires larger currents to be drawn to keep output voltage stable). A big battery will have higher current output. (remember that the inverter can deliver output for 30 cycles into a shorted output)
As the wattage of the overload goes UP, the allowed time for the overload must go DOWN. How many cycles is your fridge actually drawing 80 amps @ 12 volts? That is way over 2 TIMES rated watts! That is impressive. Unfortunately, Victron does not provide any graph showing overload vs time. The Victron manuals provide minimal information.
@mvas How many cycles is your fridge actually drawing 80 amps @ 12 volts? That is way over 2 TIMES rated watts! That is impressive.
Takes about a second to start.
My multi 1600-70 running the microwave (~115a) when the fridge starts up (+ 80a).
I'm happy my multi can run at it's rated output (microwave 1150w) and still absorb the 1000w that the fridge needs to start up. The multi still performs when it is so hot (40c ambient), the fan runs continuously without any load.
Victron does not provide any graph showing overload vs time. The Victron manuals provide minimal information.
Victron does supply the info as to what the inverter can output with a decent battery, decent cabling and known loads.
Victron even gives temp de rating info, not that the inverters output is limited, more that the time the inverter can run before it gets overheated and shuts down.
Consumers tend to hook up a battery to an inverter with some wire, stuff the whole lot in a box, and then expect to power an unknown load.
does not exceed 1200VA AC in any way.
Not even for a fraction of a second.
Obviously I don't have an oscilloscope to see if for a millisecond it exceeds even 3x nominal power. I only have shunt, cheap clamp meter and tester.
The cables are approximately 0.8m each x 16mmq. Much more than prescribed in the manual (6mmq up to 1.5m for 500va??? ridiculous!).
The dc voltage reading the victron internally is totally wrong. 0.05v less than the tester or shunt or Battery sense, at zero load. with high load the error still increases.
12v.
Victron Phoenix 500 with toroidal transformer .
Max efficiency: 90%
Surge: 900
Weigh: 3.9 kg
Zero load consumption: 6w
EPEVER STI 500 with toroidal transformer.
Max efficiency: 91%
Surge: 1600
Weight: 7.3 kg
Zero load consumption:5w
Epever STI cost the same or a little less than victron phoenix.
All specs are better and the tech info are much more detailed.(like 4 different times of power, and various levels of efficiency). These is a really serious attitude of the company, in my opinion.
The only Better spec in victron is the frequency tolerance. 0.1% vs 0.2%
What's the technical reason why exactly the same technology (same bridge-toroidal transformer) of epever have a surge power almost 2 times of victron? And the reason why Epever weight a lot more?
If you don't like / agree with what you have there's four options.. (sort of )
1 - Send it Victron (under warranty?) for testing.
2 - Accept this is the way of things and move on.
3 - Buy Chinese...Good luck with that.
4 - Buy a more powerful Victron Inverter.
Your call Good luck i hope things get sorted .
ps i have a Phoenix inverter 1200va & two Inverter RS Smart 48/6000.
I never said I'm not happy. i said a startup of 2x is quite disappointing for a transformer inverter.
high quality transformer inverters reach 3x... and not only high quality.
China produces a lot of garbage, but also great products. even higher than European and American products. China produces garbage because Westerners pay it to produce garbage.
If you pay the right amount, China produces the highest quality. (Apple etc etc. The same victron products are produced in china and India, and victron rebranded a number of chinese-brands products in the past, only increasing the price. for example some old pwm controllers).
Saying " good luck with a Chinese product" means nothing. Almost everything is Chinese.
Where are the lithium cells of Victron batteries produced? From who?? I don't know.
Almost all of the lithium cells in the world are of Chinese production.
I have seen epever ipower HI(HF) and epever NPOWER (LF square iron transformer) inverters tested on an oscilloscope and they look very good.
they also cost the same as a Phoenix victron.
And they are designed and manufactured by a Chinese company
Also toroidal transmormer and capacitors inside victron inverter are 100% made in china, from cinese Company. Keen Ocean inductors and Sancon capacitor's.
Nothing USA made or Japan made or EU made.
