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gravely-headstone asked

Phoenix Smart IP43 strange behaviour - please help

Hi All,

I am hoping that somebody out there who is also using a Phoenix Smart IP43 Charger, may have similarities in the way their charger behaves compared to the way mine does.

I have had my charger for about three weeks. The one I have now is the second device - the first one was returned to my supplier for a warranty return on the assumption that it was faulty - but it has turned out that both devices exhibited the same fault.

The version that I have is the 230V, 12V/50A, 1 + 1 variety. It is charging an 800Ah FLA battery which is less than 10 months old.

I am powering the charger with a Yamaha EF6600E generator - rated output 230V - 5 kVA.

The ABSORPTION Voltage is set to 15.0V, as per manufacturer's specifications. The temp compensation is set to -30.00mV/deg C, as per manufacturer's specifications. The resultant ABSORPTION voltage is about 15.3V - 15.4V.

When I switch the charger on, the first thing that I check is that it is in BULK mode. The manual states that BULK mode means that the device " Charges the battery using the maximum current until the absorption voltage is reached. ".

The maximum that I have seen my charger produce is 46A - nowhere near the 50A that the manual suggests it should.

Within about a minute of starting the charging, that 46A figure starts to drop, and it drops steadily. This is not what the manual says it should do.

Meanwhile the displayed voltages start to rise. At some seemingly arbitrary point, the device will switch from BULK to ABSORPTION - even though the ABSORPTION voltage has not been reached.

If I leave everything to chug along, the Amps will drop steadily, and the voltage will go up steadily, until the Absorption voltage is reached, and eventually, if left to run for long enough, the charger will go into FLOAT mode.

My issue is that, in effect, this charger is trickle-charging my battery, as it is not working as the manual says it will, or how I expect it to. It elongates the whole charging process as it does not output its full charging amps to start off with - and at approximately $4.50 per hour that it costs to run my generator, I like to keep the generator time to a minimum.

My Victron MPPT Solar charger puts out its max 80A ( if given enough sunlight ) until Absorption voltage is reached - why does the Phoenix Smart charger NOT do the same ?

If any users with the same or similar chargers are seeing similar behaviour, I would be interested to know ! Or am I the only muggins with this problem ?


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Phoenix Smart Charger ip43
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Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) avatar image Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) ♦ commented ·

Hi @Gravely Headstone

Can you perhaps also add an image of the battery settings and of the VE.Smart networking menu?

Kind regards,

Thiemo van Engelen

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gravely-headstone avatar image gravely-headstone Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) ♦ commented ·

Hi Thiemo,


Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy submission and respond. Here is the info that you asked for :

1687837805585.png

For the record, the setting that I have highlighted with the red arrow, will not go any lower than 1 hour. As it is one of the Victron recommendations to not run in ABSORB mode for too long, I am surprised that I am not able to make it any smaller.

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Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) avatar image Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) ♦ gravely-headstone commented ·

Hi @Gravely Headstone

And did you have BatterySafe disabled all the time or did you disable it after the comment below?

Kind regards,

Thiemo van Engelen

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gravely-headstone avatar image gravely-headstone Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) ♦ commented ·
I disabled it about 2 - 3 weeks ago when I realised that I may have an issue, and I started trying to work out what it was. It has stayed disabled since then.
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3 Answers
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gravely-headstone answered ·

The net result ...

Thank you to all those who responded with advice and suggestions. The net result was that Victron Energy very kindly supplied me with the 120V - 240V model of the Phoenix charger - which is a more modern version of the 230V that I purchased initially.

This charger does perform as expected in my setup. It stays in BULK mode until the Absorb voltage is reached. It does produce the expected 50A charge until the voltage reaches 14.7V, and then the amps are reduced as stated in the posts above.

Thanks to Victron Energy for commendable customer service !

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Mark avatar image
Mark answered ·

In terms of the charge current being below max current, that is likely because your battery voltage is rising quite fast, so the charge current is automatically limited to protect the battery. If you turn off the 'BatterySafe' setting under 'Expert settings' that behaviour will be disabled.

1635fcfbf56e48.jpg


In relation to the early switch to absorption and reported 0V battery voltage, something is likely wrong there - the battery monitor (paired with the charger via VE.Smart Network) could be faulty, somehow physically disconnecting from the battery (check all connections, fuses, etc) or maybe it's loosing Bluetooth connection with the charger (how far away is it?). As a test you could also try charging with the charger in stand-alone configuration (remove the battery monitor from the VE.Smart Network), just note that cable losses will not be compensated for.


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gravely-headstone avatar image gravely-headstone commented ·
Hi Mark - thanks so much for your response and suggestions.


I did think of the Battery Safe switch and I disabled it quite soon after I noticed the problem. It does not seem to have had any effect.

The 0V seems to occur about once every minute, and it lasts only for about one second. I doubt that it has any bearing on the issue, but you never know. I was actually surprised that I managed to capture it on the screen print - it was a lucky shot.

All of the devices are within about 1.5M of one another, and I have tried charging with the solar charger off ( physically off and also just disconnected from the network ) and then by disconnecting the battery from everything, and connecting the mains charger directly to it. It would still not charge at Max Amps., even for a few seconds. It seems to start off quite naturally at 46A.

The only thing that I have done that made it change its behavior was to connect the charger directly to a portable camping generator - Inverter type. Although it would not output more than 46A, the 46A did not decline over time until the Volts had reached the ABSORB value. That was more like I was expecting.

But I have not yet seen anything in the Victron doco that suggests that the Phoenix IP43 needs to be connected to an Inverter generator before it will sort of start to behave properly :-)




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Mark avatar image Mark ♦♦ gravely-headstone commented ·

Questions:

Were the screen images you provided in your original question (where the charger is in Bulk mode) taken when the 'BatterySafe' setting was on or off?

Have you ever tested the Phoenix Smart Charger from a mains AC supply and does the same behavior occur? (The generator you are using may have low output voltage or a poor quality sine wave)


Additional information:

VE. Smart Network

From your response to Thiemo I can see that you have 2 battery monitoring sources in the same VE.Smart Network with the Phoenix Smart Charger - I think this is causing confusion as both the BMV and Smart Battery Sense will be providing battery voltage to the charger.

If you read the 'limitations' chapter in the VE.Smart Networking manual (https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/VE.Smart_Networking/en/limitations.html) it states that multiple battery monitors should not be included in the same VE.Smart Network. Note there is meant to be prioritization logic in case this occurs, but it may not be totally effective in your case since there are times when 0V battery voltage is reported.

If your BMV has a battery temperature sensor connected it would be best to leave this device and remove the Smart Battery Sense from the VE.Smart Network and installation. However it looks like it doesn't, so you will need to remove the BMV from the VE.Smart Network that the Phoenix Smart Charger is in (leaving only the Smart Battery Sense).


Max charge current

The charger should provide the full rated charge current, providing:

  1. The charge current limit is set to maximum
  2. The charger is in Bulk stage or the battery voltage is below the absorption voltage setpoint (once the absorption voltage is reached the charge current must be reduced)
  3. 'BatterSafe' is not enabled and actively limiting the the charge current (to control how fast the battery voltage increases)
  4. The charger is not reducing output current to protect from overheating (ambient temp <40°C)
  5. There is a stable/clean AC supply >210VAC for the 230V model (note there is also a 120V-230V model)
  6. The output power is below the max output power limit of 735W for the 12V/50A model ( this is based on 14.7V x 50A = 735W)

Note: AGM and FLA batteries typically require an absorption voltage of 14.4V or 14.7V, so the output power limitation mentioned above is normally irrelevant. However, since your particular FLA batteries require a 15.0V absorption voltage and the actual output voltage may be even higher (due to temperature compensation + cable voltage drop compensation) this will be relevant for your installation/use, but only when the output voltage is >14.7V.


Absoprtion Time

Absorption time of up to 8h is typically required for AGM and FLA batteries, so I'm confused by your comments about this. Short absorption times (or no absorption) is typically only suitable for Lithium batteries. For AGM and FLA batteries it's normally recommended to use adaptive absorption duration with the maximum time set to 8h.

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gravely-headstone avatar image gravely-headstone Mark ♦♦ commented ·
Thanks Mark for your very detailed response. Lots to digest. I will respond as soon as possible.
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gravely-headstone avatar image gravely-headstone Mark ♦♦ commented ·

1. The original screen images were taken when the "Battery Safe" setting was OFF.


2. Unfortunately I do not have access to grid power, so I have not been able to perform that test.


3. While my generator is getting a bit long in the tooth, it does still manage to run my entire household, without any known problems - digital washing machine, coffee machine, microwave oven, sewing machine, television, vacuum cleaners, drills, etc. ( not that this proves or disproves anything ).


The RMS voltage shown on a display that I have shows 228-229V when the charger is first switched on, to 231-232V towards the end of its run, so it is pretty nearly spot on.


I think I read somewhere that one of the strengths of the Victron equipment was that it could be connected to all manner of "shore power", and could handle it with ease. Not in my case, it seems.


4. The Victron equipment that I have is - 1 x MPPT Solar Charger 150/85, 1 x Temp and Volts sensor, 1 x BMV-712 Smart, and 1 x recalcitrant mains charger. My battery is a dumb FLA with no internal management of its own. I do not see what may be duplicating any monitoring function.


Are you saying that my Temp and Volts sensor should be disconnected ? If I do that, where does the BMV-712 get its voltage and temperature information from ?


5. The information that you provided regarding the various limitations for getting the maximum out of the charger is disappointing to say the least. I have scrutinized the user manual with an intense scrute, and have not found the 14.7V x 50A = 735W limitation mentioned anywhere. It would be nice if future versions of the manual pointed it out, as it may stop others from purchasing a charger that may not fulfil their expectations.


6. Absorption time - the manual states "Variable absorption time : The absorption time is short ( at least 30 minutes ) if an almost fully charged battery is connected and (it) increases to 8 hours for a totally discharged battery". However, if *I* want to control the absorption time, I cannot set 30 minutes, only 1 hour or greater. Seems strange.

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Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) avatar image
Thiemo van Engelen (Victron Energy staff) answered ·

Hi @Gravely Headstone

the fact that the current is not reached is indeed caused by a power limit of the Phoenix Smart IP43 Charger. It can reach 50A upto around 14.7V and when the output voltage gets any higher, it limits the maximum output current.

Then about the Absorption time limit. This is indeed limited in the firmware of the Phoenix Smart Charger. For the newer 120-240V model, this has been fixed in new firmware, but such firmware has not been released yet for the the original 230V model.

Then there is the issue of the charger going to Absorption too soon. One of the things that you could test is limit the charge current to 30A and see whether it stays in Bulk then.

Just to be sure, the BMV and the Smart Battery Sense are connected to the same battery?

Kind regards,

Thiemo van Engelen

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gravely-headstone avatar image gravely-headstone commented ·
Hi Thiemo,


Apologies for taking so long to respond to your questions.

As you are probably already aware, I did the test by limiting the charge amps to 30, and this did cause the charger to stay in Bulk mode until the Absorb voltage was reached.

Also, I have only one battery in my simple system.


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