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mswoboda avatar image
mswoboda asked

Three Phase System and Splitphase system from one LiFePo4 battery bank

Maybe it sounds strange.
I will build here in Panama a splitphase system with 2 Quattros. There will be a LiFePo4 battery with 290Ah/48V(600A max) with Lynx, Cerbo and MPPT RS.
Thats the easy part.
The battery is connected via VE.Can (its using the Pylontech protocol) to the Quattros.

But I have wood working machines from Austria, which run on three phases 380V.

Now the question:
Would it be possible to buy additional 3x Mulitplus 5000VA , configure as three phase, connect them seperate with the battery cables to the same Lynx (Distributor) system?
The second VenusOS could run on a Raspi. Maybe a smart shunt is needed for the Multiplus system?


As the MPPTs are loading the batteries (it distributes DC power to the system) it should work. Or, am I wrong?

Then I would have the split phase in my house and the three phase system in my workshop.

Of course it is expensive. But changing all the motors of the woodworking devices is also expensive.

btw: Can I use the Phoenix inverter smart 5000/48V. I mean can I configure it as three phase? Would be cheaper instead of 3 Multiplus...


Any concerns?
Thank you!

ps.: the workshop will be build new. Ie. the cables would be like in Europe additionally to the 120V in separate hoses.

MultiPlus Quattro Inverter Chargersplit phaselynx distributor
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2 Answers
Alexandra avatar image
Alexandra answered ·


@mswoboda

Is it possible, yes.

Is the configuration supported by Victron. No.

You battery bank would need to be big eough to support all 5 inverters. So you would still need to add batteries, then at that point it would probably be better to install a separate system.

The Pheonix inverters can be installed as three phase it is on the product page

Have you looked at simpler options such as VFD/VSD drives?

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von-baron avatar image von-baron commented ·
Good point, to use VFDs.

What @Alexandra means is to have a VFD for each of your three phase motors that you use for wood working. VFDs come in all different sizes for different power and voltage requirements and a lot of the smaller units can accept single phase input and generate three phase for output, to connect to a three phase motor.

The nice thing about using a VFD in situations like what you might have, is that the VFD will ramp up the motor according to a ramp up speed, thereby taking away the normal large in-rush currents you will normally have when you start a three phase motor DOL (direct on line).

The VFD can also provide you with very nice speed control, which might be something worthwhile for what you do, I am not sure. The VFD will protect the motor and operate within the parameters to not then overload your system.

For example, I fitted a small one to a potery wheel for a family member, and they really enjoy the smooth control they now have, by using a three phase motor on a single phase supply.

I also use them in industrial control situations, currently working on a 250kW VFD with programming it to do what the customer needs. So, maybe this is a good solution that @Alexandra suggested.


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mswoboda avatar image mswoboda von-baron commented ·

@von baron:

I was now looking at the VFD. I have a question.
Suppose I buy a big VFD (10kW), is it possible to connect 2 machines at the same time on one VFD: E.g. cirular saw 3kW and vaccum system 2,5kW.
If this is the case, I could make one point of 380V/3 phase and distribute the current in the workshop with the same wiring like in Europe.
I could plugin all my devices. Two devices are only in one situation are running: A woodworking machine and the vaccum system.

This is an example of the VFD:
https://www.ato.com/10-hp-vfd-1-phase-220v-to-3-phase-380v

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von-baron avatar image von-baron mswoboda commented ·
Hi @mswoboda with using a VFD you can only use multiple motors on the one VFD if the motors have the same parameters, the 'name plate' data. So all motors must be the same for this to work.

For different size or type motors, you will need a VFD per motor.

Having a VFD per motor allows you to set the running speeds independently for each.

Yes, that link is one example, there are many manufactures of VFD.

I work with Allen Bradley and ABB VDF equipment here in Australia.

You would size the VFD to handle each motor, so for a 3kW saw, you might use a VFD that can handle +3kW, say a 4kW to 5kW might be suitable.

Smaller VFD come in selection that offer either single or three phase input, so yes, for small systems like you might have, I think you can get the VFD as single phase input. It creates three phase in the VDF to connect to your motor.

You might find with speed control you can eliminate vibrations or harmonics in your equipment, such as band saw, making working with nicer.

My suggestion is that you speak to a qualified electrical person in your area who understands industrial systems and can help you with making the correct decision for your needs. I am confident that you will find this to be a workable and efficient solution.

Also, look into the wood working forums online, as I am certain there will be many others who have done this and will have experience that they will share with you.


I hope you have good success :-)


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mswoboda avatar image mswoboda von-baron commented ·

Thank you @von baron.

I expected your answer like you did. After I did a research on the internet in the meanwhile, I also come to the conclusion to use for each device one VDF.
I also thought that I will oversize it like you suggested.
Maybe I can take one VDF for the saw and the planer. I was looking both of them have 4kW.

Finding here in Panama a "qualified electrical person" might be a challenge ;-))

Thank you for your help!


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von-baron avatar image von-baron mswoboda commented ·
You are welcome.

Yes, getting the same unit for both machines seems to make good sense, so one can always be the backup to the other if you ever need, or maybe you suggest just using the one VFD for both but only using one at a time by switching over the electrical circuit to the other motor, that could be possible too.

I do strongly suggest you do get someone with VFD installation experience to help you, to make sure the electrical installation is safe and according to your local regulations. Like most inverter electronics, there is high voltages present and a good degree of safety and knowledge is required. I am not an electrician, but work in the industrial automation sector as a programmer and so work closely with people in this sector with equipment like this.

Quality VFDs are very reliable and should see you with many happy years of machining wood.

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mswoboda avatar image mswoboda von-baron commented ·

Thank you for your warning, I agree.

My background is car mechanic (master degree), I worked 8 years on cars. Later on I studied again and I have another master degree in a technical IT study. I wired mostly of my house in Austria with the help of an electrician. Also the PV system I was doing partly by myself, also with an electrician.

The wooden part of my technical knowledge I have from self studies and trial and error - still I have all my fingers ;-)

As I said here in Panama it is not easy to find professional workers. But I am sure to find somebody I can work with.
Also I bought already literature of the grid system (and regulations) of America as it is quite different to Europe.


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mswoboda avatar image
mswoboda answered ·

Thank you @Alexandra and @von baron !
I dint know that a device like a VFD exists! Maybe that is a solution.
Can anybody recommend a source where to buy?
And what are the parameters?
I would need a device which is handling the input of 240V/60Hz one phase to 380V/50Hz three phase. The power of the machines are starting from 1,8kW and is going to 4kW. So for each device one VFD.

But did I understood it right: One device can change the voltage, 1phases-to-3phase, and frequency? If yes, thats cool!
What is the energy loss?

To reduce the inrush current is of course a very nice side effect!
Changing the speed...I am not sure if I need to control the speed of a circular- or bandsaw or a planer...but maybe it makes sense.

@Alexandra: To finalizes the theoretical excurs of sharing one battery:
The battery size would be the same size, because if I use the current for the Quattros or for the Mulits, the amount of current will be the same. 690Ah@48V are around: 35kWh with a maximal current of 600Amps. That should be enough for the house and the workshop. Regardless of using the current for the Quattro or Multisystem.

I had concerns in the sense, that the Quattro-system is wondering, why the battery tension is going down, not seeing a use of energy (because the Multi-system is using the energy). But maybe thats not an issue. Because if you have DC consumers, its actually the same (there is an option in the VenusOS).
And good information I could use the Phoenix for that.

Now I have to wait what the price would be to change the motors (or maybe its just changing the eletric parts) then I can compare the efforts/prices.



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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ commented ·
@Alexandra

I always see that no one sizes the bank for a max fault situation. Cant agree or disagree with your bank evaluation as i dont know the size quattros you have or the size inverters you were planning on buying. 600A battery bank is 12.5kva of power; I assume that is nominal running not peak.

The vsds is usually sized for motor size. frequency of operation is sort of irrelevant as it works by varying frequency.

The rest like start up or wind up/down time and all that is programmed onto the unit. As well as the aux input of speed control and emergency stops.

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mswoboda avatar image mswoboda Alexandra ♦ commented ·

Ok.

(1)The initial planed setup in Panama:
2 x Quattros 10kW (split phase 240/120V/60Hz)
Grid connected ESS
1 x MPPT RS 450/200, 12kWP panels
3 x 230Ah LiFePo4 battery
Lynx, Cerbo
Maybe a generator (if the sun here in Panama is enough I wont need one)

This setup could work with VFD or changing the motors of the devices.

(2) The setup with Phönix could be:
2 x Quattros 5kW (split phase 240/120V/60Hz)
Grid connected ESS
1 x MPPT RS 450/200, 12kWP panels
3 x 230Ah LiFePo4 battery
3 x Phoenix 5kW (three phase 380V/220V/50Hz)
Lynx, Cerbo
This setup will work with the original motors

(3)The setup at my home in Austria is at the moment:
3 x Muliplus 5kW (three phase 380V/220V/50Hz)
Grid connected ESS
3 x MPPT 250/100, 15kWP
LiFePo 560Ah self build with busbar

In Austria the machines are running fine, even I just run offgrid (also starting the machines with inrush).

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