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cronblad avatar image
cronblad asked

Three phase ess - not working in inverter mode

Hello from Sweden

I’m Daniel and have installed a three phase ESS system at VRM ID: 48e7da8858fb May I ask @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) to have a look of what I might have missed out on?

I have two issues:

1. With the manual flick switches (one on each inverter) at the outside bottom RH of the multiplusses in ”charger only” mode, the pass through works so I can currently feed the house (-5c outside doesn’t gove room for too much downtime) but the relay test is in pending satte even though battery is fully charged.

2. When I flick the 3 switches mentioned before over to ”inverter mode” the system make attempts to start up but does not succeed. I reloaded the ess assistants today and restarted but no difference. In this case, during the start up attempts i can see in the CerboGX Display menu that the relay test is completed.

Best regards

Daniel Cronblad

ESS3 phase
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shaneyake avatar image shaneyake commented ·

They are programed as a 3phase group using VE.Bus program correct?
Have you tried starting the inverters with output circuit breakers off?
What happens?

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cronblad avatar image cronblad shaneyake commented ·
Yes, they are and all three on firm ware 498.

Yes, I have tried starting without load on AC out. No difference.

/Daniel

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shaneyake avatar image shaneyake cronblad commented ·

When you did your without load start was the AC_OUT of all the inverters still tied together? or can you isolate them from each other?

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cronblad avatar image cronblad shaneyake commented ·

Right now they are tied together. One phase from each inverter goes to a coupling box from where a bigger AGW cable then goes to the breaker in the house breaker cabinet.

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cronblad avatar image cronblad shaneyake commented ·
I can definately isolate them from each other by putting breakers right after each AC out on each inverter. What root cause do you have in mind?
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shaneyake avatar image shaneyake cronblad commented ·

I just want to check the inverters individually are okay. Lets say one has a problem and the outputs are all tied together it can prevent the others from starting up.
Do you have a 3 phase 50A breaker on the output? If you open that breaker only the neutrals are still tied together right?

Can you post a picture of the inside of the coupling box?
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cronblad avatar image cronblad shaneyake commented ·
Thinking more about it I became unsure if they really are tied together but I agree with your logic to isolate each inverter. I’ll check tomorrow. Yes the PE and N shall be unswitched but I will double check that aswell. Thank you for your kind support!
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cronblad avatar image cronblad shaneyake commented ·

Phases on AC out are separated and switched separately after this box
8adb264d-6ee2-476d-9a1b-7b9d7be6b007.jpeg

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cronblad avatar image cronblad cronblad commented ·


All AC out loads are connected to critical loads output. I.e entire house hold on critical loads.
1cd24989-e01f-4992-9390-5d8051375b62.jpeg

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cronblad avatar image cronblad shaneyake commented ·
I can also, instead of adding breakers just disconnect all phase wires from AC out but keep PE and N connected for voltage reference. I’ll try this after work tomorrow.
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shaneyake avatar image shaneyake cronblad commented ·

You can disconnect all 3 wires from the inverter output and see if it boots up.

PE is joined from AC_IN TO AC_OUT.
AC_IN TO AC_OUT N is only joined when inverter closes contactors.

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cronblad avatar image cronblad shaneyake commented ·

a4aa3b05-dd9e-472a-86a6-0ac886f36e0c.jpegthe manual states that ac out needs a common neutral for proper voltage reference. The phases I disconnected but no success unfortunately.

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cronblad avatar image cronblad cronblad commented ·
@shaneyake @Alexandra The system is eventually up and running. The trouble shooting by running two&two in split phase showed that the inverter designated to L2 did not communicate as expected. I contacted my distributor and opened a case towards Victron who sent a new one within warranty. Thank you to both of you for your kind help in asking the questions to get me in the right direction. Now I have some tuning and parameter settings for the battery to do to make it work well. Stay safe! //Daniel
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cronblad avatar image cronblad commented ·



The system at VRM ID: 48e7da8858fb

1a517cac-7b35-4be9-a3eb-3dd774b010fb.jpeg


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2 Answers
Alexandra avatar image
Alexandra answered ·

Install a system bypass switch.

@Cronblad

Now comes the slog part of troubleshooting.

You need to set each one to stand alone with ess and test its function. Obviously no three ohase loads running at this time.

If they all work as expected in stand alone, then it is something in the config for the three phase causing the issue.

If they dont invert as individuals then your battery system may be the issue. Check your dc cut off and restart values and physical connections there.

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cronblad avatar image cronblad commented ·
Do I understand correctly that keeping the ess assistants in each multi but disconnect the AC out loads and disconnect the rj45 communications cable inbetween them? Then start them one by one and see how they behave.


By the way update the firmware today from 498 to 500. Reconfigured all three in three phase, added the ess assistants again in each multi but no difference vs before. They only function with the main switch in ”charger only” and always start functioning at the third start attempt. I find it strange.

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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ cronblad commented ·
No if they are still programmed as a three phase you will get errors switching on only one phase. Once a system is programmed as a three phase switch the system on and off using a GX or a DMC to get the synchronised switching.
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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·


@Alexandra

Ok, got it. Thank you for helping me!

Today I have started all over disconnected all multis from each other and the GX to test them in stand alone. Ran another firmware update (version 500) to clear the ESS assistants. Good thing is that they all work fine in stand alone and goes immediately into charging the battery and powering their respective phases.

When connecting the RJ45 communication cables between the multi´s and the GX same issue persists. Main switch in inverter position. System tries to start up time after another but fail.

I flick the main switch to "charger only" and on the third start up attempt it accepts the load.

I´m out of ideas LOL :-)


I have attached print screens of all the tabs in the VE.Configure3 and VE Bus System Configurator tools.Trouble shooting Daniel Cronblad 3phase ESS Sweden.pdf


Any ideas from @Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) or @mvader (Victron Energy) ?


Free beers in Sweden anytime you visit here if you can crack this nut for me :-)








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trouble-shooting-daniel-cronblad-3phase-ess-sweden.pdf (700.4 KiB)
cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·

@Alexandra @shaneyake

Made a thorough check again today, put all three multis in stand alone. They are working as expected in stand alone as far as I can understand. With AC in off the inverters supply the loads. With AC in on the chargers supply the loads and charge the battery.


Right now I’m out of ideas of what in the three phase configuration could cause the isssue. Please have a look at my VRM settings if some lead to the faulty setting can be found there. Remember, the inverters are in charger only mode right now on the main switch since that’s the only way I can supply the house loads right now. Bypass switch is bought but pending installation.




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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ cronblad commented ·
Once you have made the three phase config, do you use the GX to switch them on and off or inverter only?


If you have the three phase set up (before loading ess - but disable VSwitch) does it behave then?

Do you set up the three phase with Victron Connect?


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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·

I use the MK3 USB innerface and VE Bus system configurator from which (opens up VE configure 3) I do all the config settings per the advanced training video that Guy have on the professional site.


I must say that I have only used the VictronConnect to update the firmware. Some times the inverters were not in local device list but found when clicked button ”force detection”


To switch the inverters on, first of all I flip the main switches to position 1 ”inverter” Then the Multiplus show up as a single line in the GX with status ”off” in this state it tries several start ups. Then error code #3 show and the state of the multiplus changes from ”off” to ”fault” so I never get to a stage where I can switch on/off from the GX or the VRM remote display.

”If you have the three phase set up (before loading ess - but disable VSwitch) does it behave then?”

I will check this tomorrow and get back to you.


Kind regards

Daniel


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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·

674745f4-342e-44db-bed5-e8f2fa8b96cc.jpeg6202b9bd-480a-4da4-9053-0c81ec1511a4.jpegOff and fault

b9ab3516-133e-4718-9930-778effea2f47.jpeg



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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ cronblad commented ·

@Cronblad

The expected devices error mean one the units is not communicating correctly.

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:ve.bus_error_codes#error_3_-_not_all_or_more_than_the_expected_devices_were_found_in_the_system

in the troubleshooting manual, one of the first steps is to update the firmware in the system. you are going to have to revisit your firmware on each unit and make sure they are up to speed. particularly if you have updated the GX. Did you connect to the as individuals when updating or through the daisy chain?

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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·

91f25e02-e173-4f37-9da0-300a9b4cc55a.png@Alexandra I agree and I have read it back and forth many times lol It points to error code #1 but my status show all phases ok.



cea4362f-f2cb-42f7-a28c-7cf3799e5a23.png



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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·

I have updated them as individuals. I have tried to update them as daisy chained but did not succed so far. The following picture is from today trying to do just that but the system jumps into config directly and no ”update firmware ” can be found in Victron connect.

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cronblad avatar image cronblad cronblad commented ·

This is the following view.

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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ cronblad commented ·
@Cronblad

Seems like a comms card or something is not working well in the comms system. At this point all I can say is the units need to be checked, unless you made a note of the one that gave a few headaches with firmware update? that may narrow it down to the delinquent one.

The first culprit is usually comms cables (especially if they are custom made). Second could be units are not the same age/ hardware revision or firmware (you are confident of the firmware but you did have issues)

I am at the point where i am fairly certain it is a comms fault being the root cause here. possibly a unit fault? or something shook loos in transport. have you thought to check if all of the units internally are all good? if it all looks seated right then maybe they need to be returned for an RMA

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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·

@Alexandra I got a great help in fault finding this evening from @shaneyake via VRM and whatsApp.The conclusion after all checks is the inverters need to be sent for bench test. Might be difference in year model hardware (202145, 202150, 202204) but we don’t know for sure. I would like to send my warmest gratitude to you aswell trying to help out.

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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·

@Alexandra

I removed the ess assistant from all inverters. Kept them Configured in three phase and with communication cables connected. No big difference. Connecting the GX, switch in display for multi goes to ON but state still FAULT.

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Alexandra avatar image Alexandra ♦ cronblad commented ·
random other note on the inverter programming, the batteries you have are not liekly to have a 1.00 charge efficiency, will more likely be 85%
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cronblad avatar image cronblad Alexandra ♦ commented ·
Good point well spotted! Thank you!
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cronblad avatar image cronblad commented ·

Battery pack consists of four groups of 48v trojan lead acid connected in parallell to 4x195Ah. They have all been possible to charge with a separate charger so I don’t expect a fault there.
97f49235-6f32-452e-b676-0597724f0a2e.jpeg

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cronblad avatar image
cronblad answered ·

Hello Alexandra,

Thank you for your response. I will check in stand alone per your proposal and try to isolate the problem.

Kind regards

Daniel

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