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schwarzenbergf avatar image
schwarzenbergf asked

MultiGrid 3000 - VE.Bus Error 11 (step 6)

Hello,

I have an ESS 3-phase installation with 6 MultiGrid 48/3000/35-50 (two on each phase).

The system runs fine except this famous relay test.

I tried almost everything to troubleshoot this error, but before I try to contact my vendor(s) for the Multis, maybe someone here has an idea.

First of all, the error happens with or without load at the Multis. Without load means that there is nothing connected to the ACout of the Multis.

If I disconnect the Grid from the Multis (ACin), the Multis disconnect Active(in) and Neutral(in).

Measuring now the impedance between Neutral(in) and Neutral(out) shows > 5M Ohm, which looks correct for me.

Measuring Neutral(in) against PE(GND) shows 0 Ohm, Neutral(out) against PE shows > 10M Ohm.

If I disconnect the PE (GND) from the Multis the relay test passes without error and everything runs smooth.

I got my first 3 Multis about a year ago, the others are from October last year (1) and from two weeks ago (2).

For the error details see the attached pictures.

It would be very helpful to know what is tested during 'step 6'.

Any help is very appreciated.

errorVE.Busmultigrid
ve-bus-error-11-report.png (51.0 KiB)
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7 Answers
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) avatar image
Guy Stewart (Victron Community Manager) answered ·

Updated: when having VE:Bus Error 11 issues, please update to the latest firmware, and at least firmware versions 465 for MultiPlus, or 466 for MultiPlus-II.


Then follow the steps in this documentation to further identify the exact cause of the issue, and how to correct it:

VE.Bus Error 11 - Relay Test Fault - Installation error or possibly relay failure - step by step diagnosis and remedy.

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Paul B avatar image
Paul B answered ·

See if this helps

Looking up error code 11

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:ve.bus_error_codes

Error 11 - Relay Test Fault - Installation error or possibly relay failure

This error only applies to the MultiGrid, MultiPlus-II, EasySolar-II and other inverter/chargers with a dual backfeed relay. As part of grid-code compliance; the device tests verifies that its internal relays function properly.

The relays are tested when a grid code is selected in VEConfigure. When the grid-code is set to None, the tests are not performed.

When VE.Bus error 11 shows, either the back-feed relay test, ground relay test, or measurement redundancy tests has failed. The tests are automatically performed every time before connecting to mains.

The three root causes of the error can be (from most common to least common):

1) In most cases, when you see Error 11, its due to an installation error:

  • Please verify that the neutral is connected to earth on the supply side. In many countries this is done by the utility in the transformer cabinet (a TN network).

  • Line should be connected to the corresponding Line input on the inverter/charger, same for Neutral. A swapped connection results in Error 11.

  • There should be no external connection between N-out and GND

2) For Australia: contact your distributor.

3) Hardware defect; contact your distributor for a replacement.

Detailed diagnosis of Error 11

After updating your VE.Bus inverter/charger to firmware 454 or higher; and running Venus OS v2.23 or later, a detailed VE.Bus Error report can be seen in the Venus-device menu. The information shown is:

It shows:

  • A six digit number; which contains all the details

  • An error ID (#16 for example). Note that this does not count the the number of VE.Bus errors; its just a unique ID that can help recognizing that a new error has occured.

  • Flags

  • The failed step; it counts backwards: step 9 → 8 → 7 and so forth.

Common causes:

  • Failing step #8: check that line and neutral have not been swapped. Unlike non-grid code installations; line and neutral need to be wired correctly.

  • PE2 open error: check that AC-out Neutral is not wired to Ground. Short circuiting them is not allowed. Also, check that there is no leakage between Neutral and ground, for example because broken consumer. Start by disconnecting all loads: open all the circuit breakers.

  • AC0/AC1 mismatch and UMains error: there has been a fix for that in VE.Bus inverter/charger firmware version 455.

In all other cases, contact your Victron representative for support. Please provide a photo of the error; and otherwise at least the 6 digit number at the top.

The report is found by navigating to the Device list (top level menu), then going in to the Multi or Quattro inverter/charger page, then to the bottom, Alarm Status, then to the bottom again, in to the menu VE.Bus Error 11 report.

Now you will see a list of all devices in the system; and their latest VE.Bus Error 11 details. Enter the menu for an explanation of the code.


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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf commented ·

Thank you very much for your response.

I know all these documents and already spent days in research and troubleshooting.

With the new firmware update 455 my hope was to get more detailed information about the error.

Yes, there are more details, but 'step 6' and '0x605' is nothing which could help to get a better understanding.


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craig avatar image craig schwarzenbergf commented ·

Have you had an update on this? I have exactly the same problem. If we knew what fault 605 meant we could probably fix it.

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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf craig commented ·

The update was 'ask your dealer'. Unfortunately this seems to be a problem for Victron to give more details here. No idea why this is so complicated.

I have no 'Victron dealer', I get my stuff over the Internet, and from those 'dealers' I did not get any answer.

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image Jan Zmrhala schwarzenbergf commented ·

Have the same problem. The only answer is chcek the victron web page and your installation.

I connected only the ACIN. The AC out disconnected (PE, N and Line). Still getting error 11 failing step 6. Please give an answer for this. Customer is waiting for 2 months already. Thank you.


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David avatar image David Jan Zmrhala commented ·

Can I suggest you start buying from one of the approved Victron Dealers who is close to your location, listed on the 'Where to buy' tab which is the first tab at the top of the victron website. These good people have lots of experience, are very helpful, and once you make one or two purchases, will probably be more than happy to answer questions on your older installs.

Warmly

David

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image Jan Zmrhala David commented ·

Hi, I contacted two closest dealers already. They were more than happy to happy to help me, but had no idea about error 11 STEP 6

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image Jan Zmrhala schwarzenbergf commented ·

Hi, I just solved the STEP 6 problem. I had this issue with my Multiplus II (5.000). I bought new one. And believe or not it helped. I switched the old one with this new one and there is no step 6 anymore. I guess that the step 6 was reffering to some fault relay inside the Multiplus II.

But I had the same issue as you did. Nobody know anything about error 11 STEP 6. Everybody was reffering to the webpage, where there is nothing about STEP 6. So the last solution for me (because the Multiplus II was in clients home) was to buy new one and hope that this one works. And it worked.

Good luck.

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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf Jan Zmrhala commented ·

Thank you for this information. I was quite sure that in my case this is a hardware problem of at least 3 (of my 6) Multis. I think Victron is aware of this problem and directs everybody to the dealer (finally to exchange the device(s)). Unfortunately this is not an option for me. I found another solution (just for my situation).

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dennis avatar image dennis schwarzenbergf commented ·

May i ask you what your solution is?

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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf dennis commented ·

It is just for my situation! I have all the Multis in a room where only authorized personnel has access. Nobody can touch the Multis by accident.

The error does not appear when you do not connect PE to the Multis.

This is my simple solution, but you shouldn't do this if you do not understand the consequences (it might be dangerous).

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dennis avatar image dennis schwarzenbergf commented ·

OK, thats what i thougt :-)

You disconnected every PE? The between L1 and N at AC in1 and the chassie one?

I will test if this will solve my problem too.

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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf dennis commented ·

I did not connect PE at ACin, ACout and left the chassie PE 'empty'.

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dennis avatar image dennis schwarzenbergf commented ·

@schwarzenbergf

Thanks, i tried with removed PE, but did not help at my site. I created a RMA to get a replacement device.

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/30132/multiplus-2-error-8-and-11-report-details-0x24.html?childToView=30181

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Jan Zmrhala avatar image Jan Zmrhala schwarzenbergf commented ·

Great for you.To disconnect PE was one of the first ideas to solve this issue. But in mycase it didn’t help either. I guess that you should measure the voltage between PE and N at the AC IN and the resistance as well. I believe it will be the problem somewhere here.... Did you connect the PE to the house ground as well, did you connect the PE and N at just before the inverter AC IN?

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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf Jan Zmrhala commented ·

Read my first post (https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/11636/multigrid-3000-vebus-error-11-step-6.html), where I in detail explain what I did and measured to isolate this error.

In my house N is split up to PE and N at the house entry point (thus before it goes to the Multis). PE is connected to the house ground also at this point.

I'm almost 100% sure that the older ones of my Multis have a design error (a hardware bug), not just a defect, and Victron knows about that.

I saw other installations where a common RCD for the whole house is not working (low impedance between N and PE) but the relay test gives no error.

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schwarzenbergf avatar image
schwarzenbergf answered ·

Maybe somebody from Victron could at least explain what happens during relay test 'step 6' and what does error code '0x604' or '0x605' mean.

Is there a reason not to discus this here?

Why should I choose the much more complicated procedure to contact my Victron representative (which I do not have) just to get this information. And I'm sure that there are other people who are interested in this information.

I just want to isolate this error as much as possible before making other people busy.

BTW, the grid code is 'Germany with internal NS protection'.

Many thanks in advance.

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David avatar image David commented ·

we're also keen to see what this step 6 issue may be also as an installer/customer of ours is also seeing this infrequently.

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boekel avatar image boekel ♦ commented ·

@Guy Stewart (Victron Energy Staff) do you know the answer to this?

@schwarzenbergf:
Did you check the wiring in the system? no connections anywhere between input and output of inverter?

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schwarzenbergf avatar image schwarzenbergf boekel ♦ commented ·

Yes, I checked and rewired everything. And I measured, see my first post,

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vicky avatar image
vicky answered ·

Hi, my Multi worked several weeks. Two days ago all of a sudden it threw Error 11 when restarting after power down. ACout1 didn't come back on-line. Tried to narrow down the error but w/o success.
So I ripped out the entire wiring and did it from scratch. Almost half a day later, had to take some breaks..., set up with new wiring which I thought was correct - but same problem, Error 11.
So I started classical error tracing...Brought the Multi up w/o wirig at ACout1, then step by step connected the loads and inverters.

Finally, after I had separated the ACout1 Neutrals from ACin it worked. Was this by accident ?
I don't really understand the behaviour as the schematics Appendix2 shows both neutrals being connected after pwr up. Nor do I understand why it was working for several weeks w/o any problem.
I will upgrade Firmware to 455 next days to get more details on Error 11 in case it comes back.


I assume Version 2690455 will work


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boekel avatar image boekel ♦ commented ·

Glad you found it..but..why would someone connect Neutral of output to input?

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vicky avatar image vicky boekel ♦ commented ·

me too - and...because all Ns are connected in operation anyway. At least that is what I read from the schematics. Of course I did not "see"" the various checks going on during restart. System still working btw :)

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boekel avatar image boekel ♦ vicky commented ·

This block-diagram quite clearly shows the Neutral being switched by a relay...and it should because things can happen you don't want to happen...

The error not happening all the time will probably depend on the phase shift at the moment of the test.

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boekel avatar image
boekel answered ·

If this is still true:

'If I disconnect the PE (GND) from the Multis the relay test passes without error and everything runs smooth. '

Then I'd strongly suggest to have an electrician or Victron installer look at the wiring of the site.

Lot's of things to try:
-check for neutral-earth connections behind the inverters
-disconnect all circuits and re-connect one by one to see where the problem lies
-measure if there is voltage between incoming neutral and earth
-etc.

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vicky avatar image
vicky answered ·

This Error 11 drives me nuts. Tonight the Multigrid 48/3000 (Firmware 460), after months of running perfectly well, threw the error 11 again. And "healed" itself. Couple minutes later the error obviously was gone, system went back in operation w/o any action on my side. As the entire wiring has been replaced already and system worked for months, I will not go down this route again, just watch the situation. But of course I am keen if there is any similar experience "out there"?

Txs for any feedback


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cdgandhi avatar image
cdgandhi answered ·

looking for some assistance with error 11 (ground relay error failed at stage 8) on Victron Multiplus II GX (5kva).

Got the error almost 2 months ago and despite numerous requests to my supplier my calls have been ignored and no action taken. I am still within my warranty period.

About 6 months ago I had an error 8 message and when the supplier did come out to check they eventually replaced the invertor.

I am not an electrician so have limited knowledge of wiring but having read a bit on error 11 it stated that the is a possibility that it could be a wiring issue. My system wiring is displayed below, please can someone advise if this seems correct. The only thing I havnt seen with other systems is the connection og PE to PE AC-out 1 to AC-out 2 which in turn is connected to AC-in PE.

I am based in JHB South Africa and with almost 12 hours of load shedding a day it is difficult to function without the system.

Any help would be appreciated.





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